 Denying the Existence of God (633 views) Subscribe   
  From:  David (DavidABrown)    10/26/2002 6:15 pm  
To:  ALL   (1 of 71)  
 
  461.1  
 
Denying the Existence of God

Atheist often Proudly Boast that they themselves have no Evidence for the Existence of the Christian God of the Bible as though this is some great accomplishment on their part but really what they are doing is not denying God but instead Proving the Bible and revealing the Existence of Sin in their own life.

They are correctly assessing that they do not have a relationship with God, but then they are incorrectly assessing that the reason for not having a relationship is that there is no God when in fact the reason is quite different the reason for not knowing God is their sin and not through any fault of God.

Isaiah 59:2 But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid His face from you, that He will not hear.

I post this note not to make fun of the non-believer but to give Hope to the non-believer that in one moment of time, one breath, in one instant they can turn to God and acknowledge God and forevermore live knowing that there is indeed a God who loves them and cares about them.

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise (to Return soon), as some men count slackness; but is long suffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

God Bless you,

David



David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum
www.BasicChristian.org

 
  
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  From:  Christ, our Hope (amym38)    10/26/2002 10:39 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (2 of 71)  
 
  461.2 in reply to 461.1  
 
Very good words, David.
Amy

Speaking the Truth in Love: a forum 
 
  
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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    10/27/2002 9:02 am  
To:  Christ, our Hope (amym38)    (3 of 71)  
 
  461.3 in reply to 461.2  
 
Hi Amy,

Thanks!

I really do find it funny that some humans think that they know more and know better than God does.

God Bless you,

David



David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum
www.BasicChristian.org

 
  
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  From:  123four   10/27/2002 9:58 am  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (4 of 71)  
 
  461.4 in reply to 461.3  
 
We have a group of people now who are calling themselves 'born again' Christians who , in fact, have deserted the 'assembling of ourselves together' because they say the local church gatherings do not know as much as they do or that the local bodies are all corrupt (except them). We are told NOT to forsake the assembling of ourselves together and 'even so much more as we see the day approaching'. We need each other and we need the 5 fold ministry within our worshipping services. This is the way God wants the church to be and so we know it is necessary and beneficial for it to be according to His will. While the existence of God is not actually denied, the reality of the TRUTH of the Word of God is denied, in that some are 
ignoring the above scriptures. This opens the door for deception and all sorts of things when we pull away from the body. We are one, if we have made Jesus our Lord and we need to behave as a unit. 
  
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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    10/27/2002 11:32 am  
To:  123four   (5 of 71)  
 
  461.5 in reply to 461.4  
 
Hi,

Very True!

In fact the Bible is very clear on the topic of Fellowship.

Of the twelve tribes of Israel 2  of the tribes did not settle in the promise land but instead lived on the other side of the Jordan river and Apart from the other tribes. The tribes of Rueben, Gad and  the tribe of Manasseh all settled down outside of the Promise Land.

These tribes were fully equal to the other tribes and were just as eligible to the promises and resources of God but they chose to separate themselves.

It was these 2  tribes that being separated suffered the most from the enemies of Israel and they were the first to be removed from their land and taken into captivity by the enemies of Israel.

I think that a modern day example of this tragedy is what happened in Waco Texas with the 7th Day Adventist Church group that separated themselves from everyone else. David Koresh was their leader and the government wiped them out. I know that we disagree with the teachings that Koresh taught but I think that everyone can agree that it was a huge tragedy that took place there.

I think enemies always like to see us Isolate and remove ourselves from the support and comfort that the Christian body as a whole has to offer.

Just like the 2  tribes the Churches that isolate themselves do not deny the existence of God and are children of God but likewise they are setting themselves up, not for a special Blessing from God, but for special attention from the enemies of God.

Also there is no comparison between a Christian with bad theology and someone who denies God, the Christian still has God and the Promises and Hope of God while the non-believer is without.

God Bless you,

David



David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum
www.BasicChristian.org

 
  
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  From:  123four   10/27/2002 1:44 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (6 of 71)  
 
  461.6 in reply to 461.5  
 
We are told from professionals that the first thing an abusive husband sets out to do is to isolate his wife from friends and family, so that she will have no support..no one to talk to..no one to help her. I see this same activity in what satan has done and is doing to certain believers...he pulls them out of a fellowship and good teaching and support. HE gets them to thinking they have the answers and he feeds them filth from his own evil mind...anything he can do to confuse. Once the confusion is there, he has a field day and can do just about anything he wants to do. God did set the church up and He set it up for us.......and he knew some would fall away and He cautioned us to 'forsake not the assembling of ourselves together...even so much more as we see the day approaching'. He cautioned us of these wolves in sheeps clothing who would come into the fold talking and acting like sheep , but were inwardly ravening wolves to tear up and destroy the body as best they could. Sheep are safe to stay in their group, where their shepherd is near to watch and help them, to teach them, to shepherd them. 
  
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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    10/27/2002 2:34 pm  
To:  123four   (7 of 71)  
 
  461.7 in reply to 461.6  
 
Hi,

Good point!

The Bible refers to this tactic of separation and isolation from support and needed resources as "Siege Warfare."

Siege warfare is Satans warfare, it is the tactic that the devil most often employs against us and why, because it is so devastating against us and so successful for him.

http://64.177.86.85/articles/theology.html#Siege 

I wrote a short topic on "Siege Warfare" in Basic Christian: Theology if anyone is interested in a little more detail about it. A download is available on the forum start page.

God Bless you,

David



David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum
www.BasicChristian.org

 
  
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  From:  Watchman77    10/28/2002 3:20 am  
To:  123four   (8 of 71)  
 
  461.8 in reply to 461.4  
 
We have a group of people now who are calling themselves 'born again' Christians who , in fact, have deserted the 'assembling of ourselves together' because they say the local church gatherings do not know as much as they do or that the local bodies are all corrupt (except them). We are told NOT to forsake the assembling of ourselves together and 'even so much more as we see the day approaching'. We need each other and we need the 5 fold ministry within our worshipping services. 

I would just like to say, that I don't just CALL myself a "born-again christian" I have fulfilled all the requirements of being one also. I have NOT forsaken the assembling together, but have been forsaken by those who I was in fellowship with because they did not like the fact that I believe Jesus died to save ALL men and since He said "It if finished", then I believe that He did in fact save ALL men... and while I do believe for the most part that the local church body is corrupt, that is not why I stopped "going to church", it was for medical reasons that I had no control over. 

If it is true as you say that we should NOT forsake the assembling of ourselves with other believers, then you and the others should not have left me alone just because you did not agree with what I believe. You ALL know that I AM a christian, I have already proven that, and I have done none of the things that the bible says that we should disfellowship from someone for. 

This is the way God wants the church to be and so we know it is necessary and beneficial for it to be according to His will. While the existence of God is not actually denied, the reality of the TRUTH of the Word of God is denied, in that some are ignoring the above scriptures.

just because someone might not go to a church building and listen to a preacher repeat the same message over and over again does not mean they are forsaking the assembling together... many people assemble together everyday, not just on Sun and Weds. When people get together and share the word of God and praise and worship the LORD Jesus this is a more valid "assembling" than those who sit in chuch and let a preacher do all the work, while they sit in their comfortable pews listening.

 This opens the door for deception and all sorts of things when we pull away from the body. We are one, if we have made Jesus our Lord and we need to behave as a unit.

what opens the door for deception is when we think we know so much that we can no longer learn... when we say we KNOW God, but have no true concept of what He did... when we claim we are sanctified, but free to live in sinfulness.... all these things open the door to deception.

I agree that IF we have made Jesus our LORD we "need to behave as a unit" but if that means I have to believe as you do that we have no power over sin and that Jesus only saves those who KNOW Him, then I will never be able to be in a unit with you, because I will never go back, only forward.

 

Rest in Jesus \o/

Watchman77
http://forums.delphiforums.com/Godswrath/start 

http://www.topsitelists.com/topsites.cgi?ID=6&user=BrookeH&area=start  Vote for Watch ye therefore in Best Forums

  

Art used by permission by Pat Marvenko Smith, copyright 1992.
Click here to visit her "Revelation Illustrated" site.
Pat Marvenko Smith


  And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and He that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He doth judge and make war. Rev 19:11

 

http://www.bushcountry.org/readyornot.htm



 
 
  
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  From:  123four   10/28/2002 9:44 pm  
To:  Watchman77    (9 of 71)  
 
  461.9 in reply to 461.8  
 
Watchman, you know as well as I do that a lot of people left your forum because you continued to say that we wanted to live sinful lives, and other such untrue things. 
I am not going to continue this conversation as it is not productive and it makes others uncomfortable. 
 
  
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  From:  Watchman77    10/29/2002 3:47 am  
To:  123four   (10 of 71)  
 
  461.10 in reply to 461.9  
 
Watchman, you know as well as I do that a lot of people left your forum because you continued to say that we wanted to live sinful lives, and other such untrue things. 

the reason people left was because they could not convince me to change my understanding... and since they could not gag me, they left the forum... BTW I did not say any of you "wanted to live sinful lives", but I did say that the only reason that people would believe they "have to sin" is because there is sin they don't want to give up, so they excuse themselves, by saying "everyone sins as long as they are in the flesh" and this just is not true... it is not biblical that we MUST sin, Jesus died so we would not have to. 

What "other such untrue things"?

I am not going to continue this conversation as it is not productive and it makes others uncomfortable. 

you are the one who has gone around to several different forums on delphi and misrepresented what I have been saying, you are the one who is trying to get others to reject this message before they ever hear it, you are the one who will not just let others make up their own minds, because your's is already closed... if you do not want to "continue this conversation" that is just fine with me, but if that is the case then quit running around to different forums trying to discredit me and the message that I am sharing.
 
  


 

Rest in Jesus \o/

Watchman77
http://forums.delphiforums.com/Godswrath/start 

http://www.topsitelists.com/topsites.cgi?ID=6&user=BrookeH&area=start  Vote for Watch ye therefore in Best Forums

  

Art used by permission by Pat Marvenko Smith, copyright 1992.
Click here to visit her "Revelation Illustrated" site.
Pat Marvenko Smith


  And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and He that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He doth judge and make war. Rev 19:11

 

http://www.bushcountry.org/readyornot.htm



 
 
  
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  From:  JUSTICEZERO    10/31/2002 11:01 am  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (11 of 71)  
 
  461.11 in reply to 461.1  
 
(gets dragged in by one of those thread advertizements) 
I've never seen an atheist -boast- that they had no evidence for the existance of a god. It's just a statement of fact: "I, personally, see nothing to indicate that such an entity exists." 
Regarding Isaiah 59:2, if this is the case then there is nothing that the atheist can do about it. That statement effectively says that yes, God hides from people. If he cannot be found, then it's no fault of those from whom he is hiding that they do not see him. 

The atheists I know all live good, ethical lives. They are EMT's and firefighters and volunteers in the community and upstanding, honest people. If this does not make them worthy of the Christian god revealing himself to them, then there isn't really anything to be done about it.

-------------------- 
"Freedom is the ability to move in any direction the mind can imagine." - Mestre No 
"Liberty means responsibility. That is why most men dread it." -- George Bernard Shaw 
"Victimhood is a problem to be solved, not an identity to be nurtured." -Shahriyar Smith 
"Once upon a time, heroes went into the darkness to fight monsters. Now, there's no real darkness. We've discovered we're all monsters." -Unknown 
"The Prime Directive was a fictional device dreamed up by liberals to keep the populations of Third World countries in their place. I believe in acts of capitalism between consenting adults." _Forge of the Elders_, L. Neil Smith 
  
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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    10/31/2002 12:07 pm  
To:  JUSTICEZERO    (12 of 71)  
 
  461.12 in reply to 461.11  
 
God does constantly reveal Himself to us in Life all around us.

It could be that some people just refuse to acknowledge what God is already showing them.

God is revealed in the Miracle of birth, in life, in nature, in kindness, in love and in many other aspects.


Actually you dont know the thoughts and intentions of another person so you cant really say that everyone you happen to know lives a good and ethical life.

Nobody lives a good and ethical life all the time, except for Jesus, thats for certain. 

That is why we all need Jesus.

God Bless you,

David



David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum
www.BasicChristian.org

 
  
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  From:  JUSTICEZERO    10/31/2002 3:25 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (13 of 71)  
 
  461.13 in reply to 461.12  
 
>God does constantly reveal Himself to us in Life all around us. 
While this may or may not be so, it does not appear to be the "hand of God" to the atheist. 

>Actually you dont know the thoughts and intentions of another person so you cant really say that everyone you happen to know lives a good and ethical life. 

While I agree that I cannot see into the heart and mind of other people, many atheists I know are known for deeds which are more charitable and caring for their fellow human being than the acts and deeds of many people who identify themselves as Christians. On the whole, given equal numbers of Christians and Atheists, I find that neither group can be said to be more or less virtuous in deed than the other. 
(This is discounting those people who claim to be Christian, apparently for the sole purpose of making it easier to commit criminal acts to others. I find it to be a warning sign if someone professes their Christianity to me openly and completely unsolicitedly, as it often directly accompanies their committing of an evil act completely unbecoming someone of supposedly "Christian" morals.) 

I also note that these are people who I see selflessly give their time and energy to help people apparently without a second thought. If the Christian God choses not to reveal himself to such virtuous people, then it is God's loss. 

>Nobody lives a good and ethical life all the time, except for Jesus, thats for certain. 

We can but try, both Christian and Atheist alike.

-------------------- 
"Freedom is the ability to move in any direction the mind can imagine." - Mestre No 
"Liberty means responsibility. That is why most men dread it." -- George Bernard Shaw 
"Victimhood is a problem to be solved, not an identity to be nurtured." -Shahriyar Smith 
"Once upon a time, heroes went into the darkness to fight monsters. Now, there's no real darkness. We've discovered we're all monsters." -Unknown 
"The Prime Directive was a fictional device dreamed up by liberals to keep the populations of Third World countries in their place. I believe in acts of capitalism between consenting adults." _Forge of the Elders_, L. Neil Smith 
  
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  From:  Dan (dritter51)   10/31/2002 7:00 pm  
To:  JUSTICEZERO    (14 of 71)  
 
  461.14 in reply to 461.11  
 
ethical lives? if this is so, where does this concept come from? from doing right rather than doing wrong? if so, where does the concept of right and wrong come from? 

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Edited 11/1/2002 11:30:19 AM ET by Dan (DRITTER51) 
  
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  From:  whiteas_snow   10/31/2002 7:05 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (15 of 71)  
 
  461.15 in reply to 461.1  
 
awesome 
  
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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    10/31/2002 7:11 pm  
To:  whiteas_snow   (16 of 71)  
 
  461.16 in reply to 461.15  
 
Hi WhiteAs_Snow,

Great Login Name!

Thanks! :o)

Welcome to the forum.

God Bless you,

David



David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum
www.BasicChristian.org

 
  
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  From:  JUSTICEZERO    10/31/2002 8:05 pm  
To:  Dan (dritter51)   (17 of 71)  
 
  461.17 in reply to 461.14  
 
Things that are right would generally be agreed as things which help others to be bettered (In a sense which can be equated with any of the many versions of the Golden Rule created by cultures throughout time since thousands of years B.C.) and which affirm the rights of other human beings. There has been much thought on the concepts behind ethics. 
The end effect is that they are doing the same sorts of community service things that churches consider good, even though they may do it for different philosophical reasons. The atheist who helps a soup kitchen because they feel that doing so will make a positive impact on their community is, nonetheless, helping a soup kitchen for relatively selfless reasons. You don't need a relationship with the god of the Bible to feel that this is a good thing to do.
-------------------- 
"Freedom is the ability to move in any direction the mind can imagine." - Mestre No 
"Liberty means responsibility. That is why most men dread it." -- George Bernard Shaw 
"Victimhood is a problem to be solved, not an identity to be nurtured." -Shahriyar Smith 
"Once upon a time, heroes went into the darkness to fight monsters. Now, there's no real darkness. We've discovered we're all monsters." -Unknown 
"The Prime Directive was a fictional device dreamed up by liberals to keep the populations of Third World countries in their place. I believe in acts of capitalism between consenting adults." _Forge of the Elders_, L. Neil Smith 
  
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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    11/1/2002 7:34 am  
To:  JUSTICEZERO    (18 of 71)  
 
  461.18 in reply to 461.17  
 
Or how about that the "good feeling" that is derived from doing good is a "Blessing from God Himself" and that denying this "Encounter with God" is Exactly what the topic of this thread is about.

The next time you have an encounter like that, follow up on it, pray to God, talk to Him, He is revealing Himself to you!

God Bless you,

David



David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum
www.BasicChristian.org

 
  
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  From:  Dan (dritter51)   11/1/2002 9:17 am  
To:  JUSTICEZERO    (19 of 71)  
 
  461.19 in reply to 461.17  
 
affirm the rights of other human beings... 
and where does the concept of rights come from? according to our Constitution, God endows rights. 



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Edited 11/1/2002 12:17:41 PM ET by Dan (DRITTER51) 
  
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   From:  JUSTICEZERO    11/1/2002 2:30 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (20 of 71)  
 
  461.20 in reply to 461.18  
 
It doesn't have anything that would lead me to believe that about it. I do good things for people because it's the right thing to do - I was raised with good values that had no connection to a god, and to do evil things is, as a rule, ultimately selfdestructive.
-------------------- 
"Freedom is the ability to move in any direction the mind can imagine." - Mestre No 
"Liberty means responsibility. That is why most men dread it." -- George Bernard Shaw 
"Victimhood is a problem to be solved, not an identity to be nurtured." -Shahriyar Smith 
"Once upon a time, heroes went into the darkness to fight monsters. Now, there's no real darkness. We've discovered we're all monsters." -Unknown 
"The Prime Directive was a fictional device dreamed up by liberals to keep the populations of Third World countries in their place. I believe in acts of capitalism between consenting adults." _Forge of the Elders_, L. Neil Smith 
  
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 From:  JUSTICEZERO    11/1/2002 2:36 pm  
To:  Dan (dritter51)   (21 of 71)  
 
  461.21 in reply to 461.19  
 
The concept doesn't -have- to come from anywhere transcendant. A good idea remains a good idea no matter the source. Jefferson, a deist, was trying to place the concept of "rights" beyond the grasp of government. By placing them in "God", it makes them untouchable. Certainly there are a number of places in the Bible where such rights are muddled at best, if not nonexistant, arguably because of the historical context.
-------------------- 
"Freedom is the ability to move in any direction the mind can imagine." - Mestre No 
"Liberty means responsibility. That is why most men dread it." -- George Bernard Shaw 
"Victimhood is a problem to be solved, not an identity to be nurtured." -Shahriyar Smith 
"Once upon a time, heroes went into the darkness to fight monsters. Now, there's no real darkness. We've discovered we're all monsters." -Unknown 
"The Prime Directive was a fictional device dreamed up by liberals to keep the populations of Third World countries in their place. I believe in acts of capitalism between consenting adults." _Forge of the Elders_, L. Neil Smith 
  
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  From:  Dan (dritter51)   11/1/2002 4:43 pm  
To:  JUSTICEZERO    (22 of 71)  
 
  461.22 in reply to 461.21  
 
if reason - not faith or the Word - leads you or others to behave in a "good" way, then doesn't that suggest that God created a framework for human existence and interaction, and that within this, using the reason with which He has endowed us, we discover this? 
your use of quotes ("God") suggests Jefferson only used this as a ploy to promote his own belief in these "rights" - which you suggest by his adherence to the Deist ideas of the time were not inspired by God but merely the result of rational thought. how hypocritical that would have been if it were true. 



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Edited 11/1/2002 7:44:24 PM ET by Dan (DRITTER51) 
  
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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    11/1/2002 5:07 pm  
To:  Dan (dritter51)   (23 of 71)  
 
  461.23 in reply to 461.22  
 
Way to go Dan!

Brilliant posting..

Good point that he is really observing the natural framework that God has created and instituted where even though sin exists righteousness and mercy triumph!

God Bless you,

David



David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum
www.BasicChristian.org

 
  
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  From:  Dan (dritter51)   11/1/2002 6:18 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (24 of 71)  
 
  461.24 in reply to 461.23  
 
thank you David. bless you. I am pleased that what I tried to say was clear and understandable. 

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Edited 11/1/2002 9:18:41 PM ET by Dan (DRITTER51) 
  
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  From:  JUSTICEZERO    11/1/2002 8:31 pm  
To:  Dan (dritter51)   (25 of 71)  
 
  461.25 in reply to 461.22  
 
If there is no difference between divinely inspired morality and reasoned morality, then does it not leave God to be rather a bit of a useless appendage? One need not be divine to suggest that controlling the center square in a tic tac toe game is advisable. 
If there is no difference in morality between the atheist and the christian, then it returns to the original claim: That is, if a god did create such a moral system, then that god's reluctance to show itself to the atheist can only be framed as said god's loss. In addition, if atheists are behaving virtuously because the Christian god declared that moral behavior would be optimal, it is agreeing that there are atheists who are virtuous, and that they are fully justified in their virtue, as well as their lack of belief. In such a situation, that god has created a situation where it is unnessessary for the system of morality to function. 

As god has removed itself from the system, there is no way to show that said god was involved through this route. Morality can thus be derived without divine aid, and there is nothing in this train of thought to indicate whether a god exists. The two worlds - where a god created morality in a derivable form, and where morality is merely the right thing to do, cannot be distinguished.

-------------------- 
"Freedom is the ability to move in any direction the mind can imagine." - Mestre No 
"Liberty means responsibility. That is why most men dread it." -- George Bernard Shaw 
"Victimhood is a problem to be solved, not an identity to be nurtured." -Shahriyar Smith 
"Once upon a time, heroes went into the darkness to fight monsters. Now, there's no real darkness. We've discovered we're all monsters." -Unknown 
"The Prime Directive was a fictional device dreamed up by liberals to keep the populations of Third World countries in their place. I believe in acts of capitalism between consenting adults." _Forge of the Elders_, L. Neil Smith 
  
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  From:  Dan (dritter51)   11/1/2002 10:04 pm  
To:  JUSTICEZERO    (26 of 71)  
 
  461.26 in reply to 461.25  
 
me thinks you are in love with your own intellect. such as it is. your logic is completely flawed however. without being too catty...what is a 26 yr old still doing in college anyway? 


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Edited 11/2/2002 1:05:34 AM ET by Dan (DRITTER51) 
  
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  From:  Alex_Anatole (AlexAnatole)   11/2/2002 7:18 am  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (27 of 71)  
 
  461.27 in reply to 461.1  
 
Check out the article at this web link. I think you will find it offers an interesting insight into atheism. 
http://www.orthodoxpress.org/parish/river_of_fire.htm 




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Edited 11/2/2002 10:19:19 AM ET by Alex_Anatole (ALEXANATOLE) 
  
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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    11/2/2002 9:17 am  
To:  JUSTICEZERO    (28 of 71)  
 
  461.28 in reply to 461.25  
 
All that God has done is to Create Life and the Universe that we exist in.

If you want to call that "useless" I guess that is up to you.

But of course, Im sure that every thing that you are about, as an Atheist, is filled with meaning and purpose and that only God and Christians are deemed useless in your grand scheme.

David



David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum
www.BasicChristian.org

 
 
From:  David (DavidABrown)    11/2/2002 9:26 am  
To:  Alex_Anatole (AlexAnatole)    
 
    
 
Hi, Alex Thanks for the article here it is minus the intro.

Source: http://www.orthodoxpress.org/parish/river_of_fire.htm

The River of Fire Copyright 1980 St. Nectarios Press

THE RIVER OF FIRE by ALEXANDRE KALOMIROS

As presented at the 1980 ORTHODOX CONFERENCE

sponsored by St. Nectarios American Orthodox Church

Seattle, Washington

A reply to the questions: (1) Is God really good? (2) Did God create hell?

+ In the Name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.

Reverend fathers, dear brothers and sisters:

There is no doubt that we are living in the age of apostasy predicted for the last days. In practice, most people are atheists, although many of them theoretically still believe. Indifference and the spirit of this world prevail everywhere.

What is the reason for this state?

The reason is the cooling of love. Love for God no more burns in human hearts, and in consequence, love between us is dead, too.

What is the cause of this waning of men's love for God? The answer, certainly, is sin. Sin is the dark cloud which does not permit God's light to reach our eyes.

But sin always did exist. So how did we arrive at the point of not simply ignoring God, but of actually hating Him? Man's attitude toward God today is not really ignorance, or really indifference. If you examine men carefully you will notice that their ignorance or indifference is tainted by a deep hate. But nobody hates anything that does not exist.

I have the suspicion that men today believe in God more than at any other time in human history. Men know the gospel, the teaching of the Church, and God's creation better than at any other time. They have a profound consciousness of His existence. Their atheism is not a real disbelief. It is rather an aversion toward somebody we know very well but whom we hate with all our heart, exactly as the demons do.

We hate God, that is why we ignore Him, overlooking Him as if we did not see Him, and pretending to be atheists. In reality we consider Him our enemy par excellence. Our negation is our vengeance, our atheism is our revenge.

But why do men hate God? They hate Him not only because their deeds are dark while God is light, but also because they consider Him as a menace, as an imminent and eternal danger, as an adversary in court, as an opponent at law, as a public prosecutor and an eternal persecutor. To them, God is no more the almighty physician who came to save them from illness and death, but rather a cruel judge and a vengeful inquisitor.

You see, the devil managed to make men believe that God does not really love us, that He really only loves Himself, and that He accepts us only if we behave as He wants us to behave; that He hates us if we do not behave as He ordered us to behave, and is offended by our insubordination to such a degree that we must pay for it by eternal tortures, created by Him for that purpose.

Who can love a torturer? Even those who try hard to save themselves from the wrath of God cannot really love Him. They love only themselves, trying to escape God's vengeance and to achieve eternal bliss by managing to please this fearsome and extremely dangerous Creator.

Do you perceive the devil's slander of our all loving, all kind, and absolutely good God? That is why in Greek the devil was given the name DIABOLOS, "the slanderer".

II

But what was the instrument of the devil's slandering of God? What means did he use in order to convince humanity, in order to pervert human thought?

He used "theology". He first introduced a slight alteration in theology which, once it was accepted, he managed to increase more and more to the degree that Christianity became completely unrecognizable. This is what we call "Western theology".

Did you ever try to pinpoint what is the principal characteristic of Western theology? Well, its principal characteristic is that it considers God as the real cause of all evil.

What is evil? Is it not the estrangement from God Who is Life? 1 Is it not death? What does Western theology teach about death? All Roman Catholics and most Protestants consider death as a punishment from God. God considered all men guilty of Adam's sin and punished them by death, that is by cutting them away from Himself; depriving them of His live giving energy, and so killing them spiritually at first and later bodily, by some sort of spiritual starvation. Augustine interprets the passage in Genesis "If you eat of the fruit of this tree, you will die the death" as "If you eat of the fruit of this tree, I will kill you".

Some Protestants consider death not as a punishment but as something natural. But. is not God the creator of all natural things? So in both cases, God  for them  is the real cause of death.

And this is true not only for the death of the body. It is equally true for the death of the soul. Do not Western theologians consider hell, the eternal spiritual death of man, as a punishment from God? And do they not consider the devil as a minister of God for the eternal punishment of men in hell?

The "God" of the West is an offended and angry God, full of wrath for the disobedience of men, who desires in His destructive passion to torment all humanity unto eternity for their sins, unless He receives an infinite satisfaction for His offended pride.

What is the Western dogma of salvation? Did not God kill God in order to satisfy His pride, which the Westerners euphemistically call justice? And is it not by this infinite satisfaction that He deigns to accept the salvation of some of us?

What is salvation for Western theology? Is it not salvation from the wrath of God? 2

Do you see, then, that Western theology teaches that our real danger and our real enemy is our Creator and God? Salvation, for Westerners, is to be saved from the hands of God!

How can one love such a God? How can we have faith in someone we detest? Faith in its deeper essence is a product of love, therefore, it would be our desire that one who threatens us not even exist, especially when this threat is eternal.

Even if there exists a means of escaping the eternal wrath of this omnipotent but wicked Being (the death of His Son in our stead), it would be much better if this Being did not exist. This was the most logical conclusion of the mind and of the heart of the Western peoples, because even eternal Paradise would be abhorrent with such a cruel God. Thus was atheisrn born, and this is why the West was its birthplace. Atheism was unknown in Eastern Christianity until Western theology was introduced there, too. Atheism is the consequence of Western theology. 3 Atheism is the denial, the negation of an evil God. Men became atheists in order to be saved from God, hiding their head and closing their eyes like an ostrich. Atheism, my brothers, is the negation of the Roman Catholic and Protestant God. Atheism is not our real enemy. The real enemy is that falsified and distorted "Christianity".

III

Westerners speak frequently of the "Good God" (E.g., in France le bon dieu is almost always used when speaking of God.). Western Europe and America, however, were never convinced that such a Good God existed. On the contrary, they were calling God good in the way Greeks called the curse and malediction of smallpox, EULOGIA , that is, a blessing, a benediction, in order to exorcise it and charm it away. For the same reason, the Black Sea was called Eu xeinoV PontoV  the hospitable sea  although it was, in fact, a dreadful and treacherous sea. Deep inside the Western soul, God was felt to be the wicked Judge, Who never forgot even the smallest offense done to Him in our transgressions of His laws.

This juridical conception of God, this completely distorted interpretation of God's justice, was nothing else than the projection of human passions on theology. It was a return to the pagan process of humanizing God and deifying man. Men are vexed and angered when not taken seriously and consider it a humiliation which only vengeance can remove, whether it is by crime or by duel. This was the worldly, passionate conception of justice prevailing in the minds of a so-called "Christian" society.

Western Christians thought about God's justice in the same way also; God, the infinite Being, was infinitely insulted by Adam's disobedience. He decided that the guilt of Adam's disobedience descended equally to all His children, and that all were to be sentenced to death for Adam's sin, which they did not commit. God's justice for Westerners operated like a vendetta. Not only the man who insulted you, but also all his family must die. And what was tragic for men, to the point of hopelessness, was that no man, nor even all humanity, could appease God's insulted dignity, even if all men in history were to be sacrificed. God's dignity could be saved only if He could punish someone of the same dignity as He. So in order to save both God's dignity and mankind, there was no other solution than the incarnation of His Son, so that a man of godly dignity could be sacrificed to save God's honor.

IV

This paganistic conception of God's justice which demands infinite sacrifices in order to be appeased clearly makes God our real enemy and the cause of all our misfortunes. Moreover, it is a justice which is not at all just since it punishes and demands satisfaction from persons which were not at all responsible for the sin of their forefathers 4 In other words, what Westerners call justice ought rather to be called resentment and vengeance of the worst kind. Even Christ's love and sacrifice loses its significance and logic in this schizoid notion of a God who kills God in order to satisfy the so-called justice of God.

Does this conception of justice have anything to do with the justice that God revealed to us? Does the phrase "justice of God" have this meaning in the Old and New Testaments?

Perhaps the beginning of the mistaken interpretation of the word justice in the Holy Scriptures was its translation by the Greek word DIKAIWSUNH. Not that it is a mistaken translation, but because this word, being a word of the pagan, humanistic, Greek civilization, was charged with human notions which could easily lead to misunderstandings.

First of all, the wordDIKAIWSUNHbrings to mind an equal distribution. This is why it is represented by a balance. The good are rewarded and the bad are punished by human society in a fair way. This is human justice, the one which takes place in court.

Is this the meaning of God's justice, however?

The word DIKAIWSUNH,"justice", is a translation of the Hebraic word tsedaka. This word means "the divine energy which accomplishes man's salvation". It is parallel and almost synonymous to the other Hebraic word, hesed which means "mercy", "compassion", "love", and to the word, emeth which means "fidelity", "truth". This, as you see, gives a completely other dimension to what we usually conceive as justice.5 This is how the Church understood God's justice. This is what the Fathers of the Church taught of it. "How can you call God just", writes Saint Isaac the Syrian, "when you read the passage on the wage given to the workers? 'Friend, I do thee no wrong; I will give unto this last even as unto thee who worked for me from the first hour. Is thine eye evil, because I am good?'" "How can a man call God just", continues Saint Isaac, "when he comes across the passage on the prodigal son, who wasted his wealth in riotous living, and yet only for the contrition which he showed, the father ran and fell upon his neck, and gave him authority over all his wealth? None other but His very Son said these things concerning Him lest we doubt it, and thus He bare witness concerning Him. Where, then, is God's justice, for whilst we were sinners, Christ died for us!" 6

So we see that God is not just, with the human meaning of this word, but we see that His justice means His goodness and love, which are given in an unjust manner, that is, God always gives without taking anything in return, and He gives to persons like us who are not worthy of receiving. That is why Saint Isaac teaches us: "Do not call God just, for His justice is not manifest in the things concerning you. And if David calls Him just and upright, His Son revealed to us that He is good and kind. 'He is good,' He says, 'to the evil and impious'".7

God is good, loving, and kind toward those who disregard, disobey, and ignore Him.8 He never returns evil for evil, He never takes vengeance. 9 His punishments are loving means of correction, as long as anything can be corrected and healed in this life.10 They never extend to eternity. He created everything good.11 The wild beasts recognize as their master the Christian who through humility has gained the likeness of God. They draw near to him, not with fear, but with joy, in grateful and loving submission; they wag their heads and lick his hands and serve him with gratitude. The irrational beasts know that their Master and God is not evil and wicked and vengeful, but rather full of love. (See also St. Isaac of Syria, SWZOMENA ASKHTIKA [Athens, 1871], pp. 95-96.) He protected and saved us when we fell. The eternally evil has nothing to do with God. It comes rather from the will of His free, logical creatures, and this will He respects. 12

Death was not inflicted upon us by God 13 We fell into it by our revolt. God is Life and Life is God. We revolted against God, we closed our gates to His life-giving grace. 14 "For as much as he departed from life", wrote Saint Basil, "by so much did he draw nearer to death. For God is Life, deprivation of life is death". 15 "God did not create death", continues Saint Basil, "but we brought it upon ourselves". "Not at all, however, did He hinder the dissolution... so that He would not make the infirmity immortal in us". 16 As Saint Irenaeus puts it: "Separation from God is death, separation from light is darkness... and it is not the light which brings upon them the punishment of blindness". 17

"Death", says Saint Maximus the Confessor, "is principally the separation from God, from which followed necessarily the death of the body. Life is principally He who said, 'I am the Life'".18 And why did death come upon the whole of humanity? Why did those who did not sin with Adam die as did Adam? Here is the reply of Saint Anastasius the Sinaite: "We became the inheritors of the curse in Adam. We were not punished as if we had disobeyed that divine commandment along with Adam; but because Adam became mortal, he transmitted sin to his posterity. We became mortal since we were born from a mortal".19 And Saint Gregory Palamas makes this point: "[God] did not say to Adam: return to whence thou wast taken; but He said to him: Earth thou art and unto the earth thou shall return.... He did not say: 'in whatsoever day ye shall eat of it, die!' but, 'in whatsoever day ye shall eat of it, ye shall surely die.' Nor did He afterwards say: 'return now unto the earth,' but He said, 'thou shalt return,' in this manner forewarning, justly permitting and not obstructing what shall come to pass". 20 We see that death did not come at the behest of God but as a consequence of Adam's severing his relations with the source of Life, by his disobedience; and God in His kindness did only warn him of it.

"The tree of knowledge itself," says Theophilus of Antic, "was good, and its fruit was good. For it was not the tree, as some think, that had death in it, but the disobedience which had death in it; for there was nothing else in the fruit but knowledge alone, and knowledge is good when one uses it properly." 21 The Fathers teach us that the prohibition to taste the tree of knowledge was not absolute but temporary. Adam was a spiritual infant. Not all foods are good for infants. Some foods may even kill them although adults would find them wholesome. The tree of knowledge was planted by God for man. It was good and nourishing. But it was solid food, while Adam was able to digest only milk.

V

So in the language of the Holy Scriptures, "just" means good and loving. We speak of the just men of the Old Testament. That does not mean that they were good judges but that they were kind and God-loving people. When we say that God is just, we do not mean that He is a good judge Who knows how to punish men equitably according to the gravity of their crimes, but on the contrary, we mean that He is kind and loving, forgiving all transgressions and disobediences, and that He wants to save us by all means, and never requites evil for evil. 22 In the first volume of the Philokalia there is a magnificent text of Saint Anthony which I must read to you here:

God is good, dispassionate, and immutable. Now someone who thinks it reasonable and true to affirm that God does not change, may well ask how, in that case, it is possible to speak of God as rejoicing over those who are good and showing mercy to those who honor Him, and as turning away from the wicked and being angry with sinners. To this it must be answered that God neither rejoices nor grows angry, for to rejoice and to be offended are passions; nor is He won over by the gifts of those who honor Him, for that would mean He is swayed by pleasure. It is not right that the Divinity feel pleasure or displeasure from human conditions. He is good, and He only bestows blessings and never does harm, remaining always the same. We men, on the other hand, if we remain good through resembling God, are united to Him, but if we become evil through not resembling God, we are separated from Him. By living in holiness we cleave to God; but by becoming wicked we make Him our enemy. It is not that He grows angry with us in an arbitrary way, but it is our own sins that prevent God from shining within us and expose us to demons who torture us. And if through prayer and acts of compassion we gain release from our sins, this does not mean that we have won God over and made Him to change, but that through our actions and our turning to the Divinity, we have cured our wickedness and so once more have enjoyment of God's goodness. Thus to say that God turns away from the wicked is like saying that the sun hides itself from the blind.23 [Chap. 150]

VI

You see now, I hope, how God was slandered by Western theology. Augustine, Anselm, Thomas Aquinas and all their pupils contributed to this "theological" calumny. And they are the foundations of Western theology, whether Papist or Protestant. Certainly these theologians do not say expressly and clearly that God is a wicked and passionate being. They rather consider God as being chained by a superior force, by a gloomy and implacable Necessity like the one which governed the pagan gods. This Necessity obliges Him to return evil for evil and does not permit Him to pardon and to forget the evil done against His will, unless an infinite satisfaction is offered to Him.

We open here the great question of pagan, Greek influence on Christianity.

The pagan mentality was in the foundation of all heresies. It was very strong in the East, because the East was the crossroad of all philosophical and religious currents. But as we read in the New Testament, "where sin abounded, grace did much more abound". So when heresies flourished, Orthodoxy flourished also, and although it was persecuted by the mighty of this world, it always survived victorious. In the West, on the contrary, the pagan Greek mentality entered in unobtrusively, without taking the aspect of heresy. It entered in through the multitude of Latin texts dictated by Augustine, bishop of Hippo. Saint John Cassian who was living then in the West understood the poison that was in Augustine's teachings, and fought against it. But the fact that Augustine's books were written in Latin and the fact that they were extremely lengthy did not permit their study by the other Fathers of the Church, and so they were never condemned as Origen's works were condemned in the East. This fact permitted them to exercise a strong influence later in Western thought and theology. In the West, little by little knowledge of the Greek language vanished, and Augustine's texts were the only books available dating from ancient times in a language understood there. So the West received as Christian a teaching which was in many of its aspects pagan. Caesaro-papist developments in Rome did not permit any healthy reaction to this state of affairs, and so the West was drowned in the humanistic, pagan thought which prevails to this day.24

So we have the East on the one side which, speaking and writing Greek, remained essentially the New Israel with Israelitic thought and sacred tradition, and the West on the other side which having forgotten the Greek language and having been cut off from the Eastern state, inherited pagan Greek thought and its mentality, and formed with it an adulterated Christian teaching.

In reality, the opposition between Orthodoxy and Western Christianity is nothing else but the perpetuation of the opposition between Israel and Hellas.

We must never forget that the Fathers of the Church considered themselves to be the true spiritual children of Abraham, that the Church considered itself to be the New Israel, and that the Orthodox peoples, whether Greek, Russian, Bulgarian, Serbian, Romanian, etc., were conscious of being like Nathaniel, true Israelites, the People of God. And while this was the real consciousness of Eastern Christianity, the West became more and more a child of pagan, humanistic Greece and Rome.

VII

What were the principal characteristics of this difference of thought between Israel and paganism? I call your attention to this very important matter.

Israel believes in God.

Paganism believes in creation. That is to say, in paganism creation is deified. For the pagans, God and creation are one and the same thing. God is impersonal, personified in a multitude of gods.

Israel (and when we speak of Israel we mean the true Israel, the spiritual sons of Abraham, those who have the faith given by God to His chosen people, not those who have abandoned this faith, The real sons of Abraham are the Church of Christ, and not those carnal descendants, the Jewish race), Israel knows that God and creation are two radically different kinds of existence. God is self existent, personal, eternal, immortal, Life and the Source of life, Existence and the Source of existence; God is the only real Existence: O WN, the Existing, the Only Existing; this is the meaning of the article 'O. 25

Creation, on the contrary, has no self-existence. It is totally dependent on the will of God. It exists only so long as God wants it to exist. It is not eternal. It had no existence. It was null, it was completely nothing. It was created out of nothingness. 26 By itself it has no force of existence; it is kept in existence by God's Energy. If this loving Energy of God ever stops, creation and all created beings, intellectual or non-intellectual, rational or irrational will vanish into non-existence. We know that God's love for His creation is eternal. We know from Him that He will never let us fall into non-existence, from which He brought us into being. This is our hope and God is true in His promises. We, created beings, angels, and men, will live in eternity, not because we have in us the power of eternity, but because this is the will of God Who loves us. By ourselves we are nothing. We have not the least energy of life and of existence in our nature; that which we have comes entirely from God; nothing is ours. We are dirt of the earth, and when we forgot it, God in His mercy permitted that we return to what we are, in order that we remain humble and have exact knowledge of our nothingness. 27 "God," says Saint John Damascene elsewhere, "can do all that He wills, even though He does not will all things that He can do  for He can destroy creation, but He does not will to do so. (Ibid. I, 14) 28

In the Great Euchologion (Venice, 1862), a fundamental liturgical book of the Church, we read:

"O God, the great and most high, Thou Who alone hast immortality"

[7th prayer of Vespers, p. 15]

"Thou Who alone art life-giving by nature... O only immortal"

[Ode 5, Funeral Canon for Laymen, p. 410]

"Thou art the only immortal" [p. 410]

"The only One Who is immortal because of His godly nature"

[Ode 1, Funeral Canon for Laymen, p. 471]

This is the faith of Israel.

What is the teaching of paganism? Paganism is the consequence of the loss of contact with God. The multitude of the sins of humanity made men incapable of receiving the divine light and of having any union with the Living God. The consequence was to consider as something divine the creation which they saw before them every day.

Paganism considers creation as being something self-existent and immortal, something that always existed and will always exist. In paganism the gods are part of creation. They did not create it from nothingness, they only formed the existing matter. Matter can take different forms. Forms come into existence and vanish, but matter itself is eternal. Angels, demons, and the souls of men are the real gods. Eternal by their nature, as is matter itself, they are, however, higher than matter. They might take different material forms in a sequence of material existences but they remain essentially spiritual.

So in paganism we see two fundamental characteristics: (1) An attributing of the characteristics of godhood to the whole of creation, that is: eternity, immortality, self-existence. (2) A distinction between the spiritual and the material and an antagonism between the two as between something higher and something lower.

Paganism and humanism are one and the same thing. In paganism, man is god because he is eternal by nature. This is why paganism is always haughty. It is narcissism. It is self-adoration. In Greece, the gods had human characteristics. Greek religion was the pagan adoration of man. The soul of man was considered his real being, and was immortal by nature.

So we see that in paganism the devil succeeded in creating a universal belief that men were gods and so did not need God. This is why pride was so high in Greece and why humility was inconceivable. In his work The Nichomachean Ethics, Aristotle writes the following words: "Not to resent offenses is the mark of a base and slavish man." The man who is convinced by the devil to believe in the error that his soul is eternal by nature, can never be humble and can never really believe in God, because he does not need God, being God himself, as his error makes him believe.

This is why, from the very first, the Fathers of the Church, understanding the danger of this stupid error, warned the Christians of the fact that, as Saint Irenaeus puts it: "The teaching that the human soul is naturally immortal is from the devil" (Proof of the Apostolic Preaching, III, 20. 1). We find the same warning in Saint Justin (Dialogue with Trypho 6. 1-2), in Theophilus of Antioch (To Autolycus 2. 97), in Tatian (To the Greeks 13), etc.

Saint Justin explains the fundamental atheism which exists in the belief of the natural eternity and immortality of the human soul. He writes: "There are some others who, having supposed that the soul is immortal and immaterial, believe though they have committed evil they will not suffer punishment (for that which is immaterial is also insensible), and that the soul, in consequence of its immorality needs nothing from God" (Dialogue with Trypho 1).

Paganism is ignorance of the true God, an erroneous belief that His creation is divine, really a god. This god, however, who is Nature, is impersonal, a blind force, above all personal gods, and is called Necessity (anagkh). In reality, this Necessity is the projection of human reason, as a mathematical necessity governing the world, It is a projection of rationalism upon nature. This rationalistic Necessity is the true, supreme blind god of the pagans. The pagan gods are parts of the world, and they are immortal because of the immortality of nature which is their essence. In this pagan mentality, man is also god like the others, because for the pagans the real man is only his soul, 29 and they believe that man's soul is immortal in itself, since it is part of the essence of the universe, which is considered immortal in itself and self-existent. So man also is god and a measure of all things.

But the gods are not free. They are governed by Necessity which is impersonal.

VIII

It is this pagan way of thought that was mixed with the Christian teaching by the various heresies. This is what happened in the West, too. They began to distinguish not between God and His creation, but between spirit and matter. 30 They began to think of the soul of man as of something eternal in itself, and began to consider the condition of man after death not as a sleep in the hands of God, but as the real life of man, 31 to which the resurrection of the dead had nothing to add and even the need of the resurrection was doubtful. The feast of the Resurrection of our Lord, which is the culmination of all feasts in Orthodoxy, began to fall into second place, because its need was as incomprehensible to the Western Christians as it was to the Athenians who heard the sermon of the Apostle Paul.

But what is more important for our subject, they began to feel that God was subject to Necessity, to this rationalistic Necessity which was nothing else but human logic. They declared Him incapable of coming into contact with inferior beings like men, because their rationalistic, philosophical conceptions did not permit it, and it was this belief which was the foundation of the hesychast disputes; it had already begun with Augustine who taught that it was not God Who spoke to Moses but an angel instead.

It is in this context of Necessity, which even gods obey, that we must understand the Western juridical conception of God's justice. It was necessary for God to punish man's disobedience. It was impossible for Him to pardon; a superior Necessity demanded vengeance. Even if God was in reality good and loving, He was not able to act lovingly. He was obliged to act contrary to His love; the only thing He could do, in order to save humanity, was to punish His Son in the place of men, and by this means was Necessity satisfied.

IX

This is the triumph of Hellenistic thought in Christianity. As a Hellenist, Origen had arrived at the same conclusions. God was a judge by necessity. He was obliged to punish, to avenge, to send people to hell. Hell was God's creation. It was a punishment demanded by justice. This demand of justice was a necessity. God was obliged to submit to it. He was not permitted to forgive. There was a superior force, a Necessity which did not permit Him to love unconditionally.

However, Origen was also a Christian and he knew that God was full of love. How is it possible to acknowledge a loving God Who keeps people in torment eternally? If God is the cause of hell, by necessity then there must be an end to it, otherwise we cannot concede that God is good and loving. This juridical conception of God as a instrument of a superior, impersonal force or deity named Necessity, leads logically to apokatastasis, "the restoration of all things and the destruction of hell," otherwise we must admit that God is cruel.

The pagan Greek mentality could not comprehend that the cause of hell was not God but His logical creatures. If God was not really free, since He was governed by Necessity, how could His creatures be free? God could not give something which He did not possess Himself. Moreover, the pagan Greek mentality could not conceive of disinterested love. Freedom, however, is the highest gift that God could give to a creature, because freedom makes the logical creatures like God. This was an inconceivable gift for pagan Greeks. They could not imagine a creature which could say "no" to an almighty God. If God was almighty, creatures could not say "no" to Him. So if God gave men His grace, men could not reject it. Otherwise God would not be almighty. If we admit that God is almighty, then His grace must be irresistible. Men cannot escape from it. That means that those men who are deprived of God's grace are deprived because God did not give His grace to them. So the loss of God s grace, which is eternal, spiritual death, in other words, hell, is in reality an act totally dependent on God. It is God Who is punishing these people by depriving them of His grace, by not permitting it to shine upon them. So God is the cause of the eternal, spiritual death of those who are damned. Damnation is an act of God, an act of God's justice, an act of necessity or cruelty. As a result, Origen thought that if we are to remain Christians, if we are to continue to believe that God is really good, we must believe that hell is not eternal, but will have an end, in spite of all that is written in the Holy Scriptures and of what the Church believes. This is the fatal, perfectly logical conclusion. If God is the cause of hell, hell must have an end, or else God is an evil God.

X

Origen, and all rationalists who are like him, was not able to understand that the acceptance or the rejection of God's grace depends entirely on the rational creatures; that God, like the sun, never stops shining on good or wicked alike; that rational creatures are, however, entirely free to accept or reject this grace and love; and that God in His genuine love does not force His creatures to accept Him, but respects absolutely their free decision. 32 He does not withdraw His grace and love, but the attitude of the logical creatures toward this unceasing grace and love is the difference between paradise and hell. Those who love God are happy with Him, those who hate Him are extremely miserable by being obliged to live in His presence, and there is no place where one can escape the loving omnipresence of God.

Paradise or hell depends on how we will accept God's love. Will we return love for love, or will we respond to His love with hate? This is the critical difference. And this difference depends entirely on us, on our freedom, on our innermost free choice, on a perfectly free attitude which is not influenced by external conditions or internal factors of our material and psychological nature, because it is not an external act but an interior attitude coming from the bottom of our heart, conditioning not our sins, but the way we think about our sins, as it is clearly seen in the case of the publican and the Pharisee and in the case of the two robbers crucified with Christ. This freedom, this choice, this inner attitude toward our Creator is the innermost core of our eternal personality, it is the most profound of our characteristics, it is what makes us that which we are, it is our eternal face  bright or dark, loving or hating.

No, my brothers, unhappily for us, paradise or hell does not depend on God. If it depended on God, we would have nothing to fear. We have nothing to fear from Love. But it does not depend on God. It depends entirely upon us, and this is the whole tragedy. God wants us to be in His image, eternally free. He respects us absolutely. This is love. Without respect, we cannot speak of love. We are men because we are free. If we were not free, we would be clever animals, not men. God will never take back this gift of freedom which renders us what we are. This means that we will always be what we want to be, friends or enemies of God, and there is no changing in this our deepest self. In this life, there are profound or superficial changes in our life, in our character, in our beliefs, but all these changes are only the expression in time of our deepest eternal self. This deep eternal self is eternal, with all the meaning of the word. This is why paradise and hell are also eternal. There is no changing in what we really are. Our temporal characteristics and our history in life depend on many superficial things 'which vanish with death, but our real personality is not superficial and does not depend on changing and vanishing things. It is our real self. It remains with us when we sleep in the grave, and will be our real face in the resurrection. It is eternal.

XI

Saint John of the Ladder says somewhere in his work that "before our fall the demons say to us that God is a friend of man; but after our fall, they say that He is inexorable." This is the cunning lie of the devil: to convince us that any harm in our life has as its cause God s disposition; that it is God Who will forgive us or Who will punish us. Wishing to throw us into sin and then to make us lose any hope of freeing ourselves from it, they seek to present God as sometimes forgiving all sins, and sometimes as inexorable. Most Christians, even Orthodox Christians, have fallen into this pit. They consider God responsible for our being pardoned or our being punished. This, my brothers, is a terrible falsehood which makes most men lose eternal life, principally because in considering God s love, they convince themselves that God, in His love, will pardon them. God is always loving, He is always pardoning, He is always a friend of man. However, that which never pardons, that which never is a friend of man, is sin, and we never think of it as we ought to. Sin destroys our soul independently of the love of God, because sin is precisely the road which leads away from God, because sin erects a wall which separates us from God, because sin destroys our spiritual eyes and makes us unable to see God's light. The demons want to make us always think of our salvation or our eternal spiritual death in juridical terms. They want us to think that either salvation or eternal death is a question of God's decision. No, my brothers, we must awaken in order not to be lost. Our salvation or our eternal death is not a question of God s decision, but it is a question of our decision, it is a question of the decision of our free will which God respects absolutely. Let us not fool ourselves with confidence in God's love. The danger does not come from God; it comes from our own self.

XII

Many will say: "Does not Holy Scripture itself often speak about the anger of God? Is it not God Himself who says that He will punish us or that He will pardon us? Is it not written that 'He is a rewarded of them that diligently seek Him' (Heb. 11:6)? 33 Does He not say that vengeance is His and that He will requite the wickedness done to us? Is it not written that it is fearful to fall into the hands of the living God?" 34

In his discourse entitled That God is not the Cause of Evil, Saint Basil the Great writes the following: "But one may say, if God is not responsible for evil things, why is it said in the book of Esaias, 'I am He that prepared light and Who formed darkness, Who makes peace and Who creates evils' (45:7)." And again, "There came down evils from the Lord upon the gates of Jerusalem" (Mich. 1:12). And, "Shall there be evil in the city which the Lord hath not wrought?" (Amos 3:6). And in the great Ode of Moses, "Behold, I am and there is no god beside Me. I will slay, and I will make to live; I will smite, and I will heal" (Deut. 32:39). But none of these citations, to him who understands the deeper meaning of the Holy Scriptures, casts any blame on God, as if He were the cause of evils and their creator, for He Who said, "I am the One Who makes light and darkness," shows Himself as the Creator of the universe, not that He is the creator of any evil.... "He creates evils," that means, "He fashions them again and brings them to a betterment, so that they leave their evilness, to take on the nature of good." 35

As Saint Isaac the Syrian writes, "Very often many things are said by the Holy Scriptures and in it many names are used not in a literal sense... those who have a mind understand this" (Homily 83, p. 317).

Saint Basil in the same discourse 36 gives the explanation of these expressions of the Holy Scriptures: "It is because fear," says he, "edifies simpler people," and this is true not only for simple people but for all of us. After our fall, we need fear in order to do any profitable thing and any good to ourselves or to others. In order to understand the Holy Scriptures, say the Fathers, we must have in mind their purpose which is to save us, and to bring us little by little to an understanding of our Creator God and of our wretched condition.

But the same Holy Scriptures in other places explain to us more accurately who is the real cause of our evils. In Jeremias 2:17, 19 we read: "Hath not thy forsaking Me brought these things upon thee? saith the Lord thy God.... Thine apostasy shall chastise thee and thy wickedness shall reprove thee; know then, and see that thy forsaking Me hath been bitter to thee, saith the Lord thy God."

The Holy Scriptures speak our language, the language which we understand in our fallen state. As Saint Gregory the Theologian says, "For according to our own comprehension, we have given names from our own attributes to those of God." 37 And Saint John Damascene explains further that what in the Holy Scriptures "is said of God as if He had a body, is said symbolically... [it contains] some hidden meaning, which through things corresponding to our nature, teaches us things which exceed our nature." 38

XIII

However, there are punishments imposed upon us by God, or rather evils done to us by the devil and permitted by God. But these punishments are what we call pedagogical punishments. They have as their aim our correction in this life, or at least the correction of others who would take a lesson from our example and correct themselves by fear. There are also punishments which do not have the purpose of correcting anybody but simply put an end to evil by putting an end to those who are propagating it, so that the earth may be saved from perpetual corruption and total destruction; such was the case in the flood during Noe's time, and in Sodom's destruction.39

All these punishments operate and have their purpose in this corrupted state of things; they do not extend beyond this corrupted life. Their purpose is to correct what can be corrected, and to change things toward a better condition, while things can still change in this changing world. After the Common Resurrection no change whatever can take place. Eternity and incorruptibility are the state of unchangeable things; no alterations whatever happen then, only developments in the state chosen by free personalities; eternal and infinite developments but no changing, no alteration of direction, no going back. The changing world we see around us is changing because it is corruptible. The eternal New Heavens and New Earth which God will bring about in His Second Coming are incorruptible, that means, not changing. So in this New World there can be no correction whatever; therefore, pedagogical punishments are no longer necessary. Any punishment from God in this New World of Resurrection would be clearly and without a doubt a revengeful act, inappropriate and motivated by hate, without any good intention or purpose.

If we consider hell as a punishment from God, we must admit that it is a senseless punishment, unless we admit that God is an infinitely wicked being.

As Saint Isaac the Syrian says: "He who applies pedagogical punishments in order to give health, is punishing with love, but he who is looking for vengeance, is devoid of love. God punishes with love, not defending Himself  far be it  but He wants to heal His image, and He does not keep His wrath for long. This way of love is the way of uprightness, and it does not change with passion to a defense. A man who is just and wise is like God because he never chastises a man in revenge for wickedness, but only in order to correct him or that others be afraid" (Homily 73).

So we see that God punishes as long as there is hope for correction. After the Common Resurrection there is no question of any punishment from God. Hell is not a punishment from God but a self condemnation. As Saint Basil the Great says, "The evils in hell do not have God as their cause, but ourselves." 40

XIV

One could insist, however, that the Sacred Scriptures and the Fathers always speak of God as the Great Judge who will reward those who were obedient to Him and will punish those who were disobedient, in the day of the Great Judgment (II Tim. 4:6-8). How are we to understand this judgment if we are to understand the divine words not in a human but in a divine manner'? What is God's judgment?

God is Truth and Light. God's judgment is nothing else than our coming into contact with truth and light. In the day of the Great Judgment all men will appear naked before this penetrating light of truth. The "books" will be opened. What are these "books"? They are our hearts. Our hearts will be opened by the penetrating light of God, and what is in these hearts will be revealed. If in those hearts there is love for God, those hearts will rejoice seeing God's light. If, on the contrary, there is hatred for God in those hearts, these men will suffer by receiving on their opened hearts this penetrating light of truth which they detested all their life.

So that which will differentiate between one man and another will not be a decision of God, a reward or a punishment from Him, but that which was in each one's heart; what was there during all our life will be revealed in the Day of Judgment. If there is a reward and a punishment in this revelation  and there really is  it does not come from God but from the love or hate which reigns in our heart. Love has bliss in it, hatred has despair, bitterness, grief, affliction, wickedness, agitation, confusion, darkness, and all the other interior conditions which compose hell (I Cor. 4:6).

The Light of Truth, God's Energy, God's grace which will fall on men unhindered by corrupt conditions in the Day of Judgment, will be the same to all men. There will be no distinction whatever. All the difference lies in those who receive, not in Him Who gives. The sun shines on healthy and diseased eyes alike, without any distinction. Healthy eyes enjoy light and because of it see clearly the beauty which surrounds them. Diseased eyes feel pain, they hurt, suffer, and want to hide from this same light which brings such great happiness to those who have healthy eyes.

But alas, there is no longer any possibility of escaping God's light. During this life there was. In the New Creation of the Resurrection, God will be everywhere and in everything. His light and love will embrace all. There will be no place hidden from God, as was the case during our corrupt life in the kingdom of the prince of this world. 41 The devil's kingdom will be despoiled by the Common Resurrection and God will take possession again of His creation. 42 Love will enrobe everything with its sacred Fire which will flow like a river from the throne of God and will irrigate paradise. But this same river of Love  for those who have hate in their hearts  will suffocate and burn.

"For our God is a consuming fire", (Heb. 12:29). The very fire which purifies gold, also consumes wood. Precious metals shine in it like the sun, rubbish burns with black smoke. All are in the same fire of Love. Some shine and others become black and dark. In the same furnace steel shines like the sun, whereas clay turns dark and is hardened like stone. The difference is in man, not in God.

The difference is conditioned by the free choice of man, which God respects absolutely. God's judgment is the revelation of the reality which is in man.

XV

Thus Saint Macarius writes, "And as the kingdom of darkness, and sin, are hidden in the soul until the Day of Resurrection, when the bodies also of sinners shall be covered with the darkness that is now hidden in the soul, so also the Kingdom of Light, and the Heavenly Image, Jesus Christ, now mystically enlighten the soul, and reign in the soul of the saints, but are hidden from the eyes of men... until the Day of Resurrection; but then the body also shall be covered and glorified with the Light of the Lord, which is now in the man's soul [from this earthly life], that the body also may reign with the soul which from now receives the Kingdom of Christ and rests and is enlightened with eternal light" (Homily 2).

Saint Symeon the New Theologian says that it is not what man does which counts in eternal life but what he is, whether he is like Jesus Christ our Lord, or whether he is different and unlike Him. He says, "In the future life the Christian is not examined if he has renounced the whole world for Christ's love, or if he has distributed his riches to the poor or if he fasted or kept vigil or prayed, or if he wept and lamented for his sins, or if he has done any other good in this life, but he is examined attentively if he has any similitude with Christ, as a son does with his father."

XVI

Saint Peter the Damascene writes: "We all receive God's blessings equally. But some of us, receiving God's fire, that is, His word, become soft like beeswax, while the others like clay become hard as stone. And if we do not want Him, He does not force any of us, but like the sun He sends His rays and illuminates the whole world, and he who wants to see Him, sees Him, whereas the one who does not want to see Him, is not forced by Him. And no one is responsible for this privation of light except the one who does not want to have it. God created the sun and the eye. Man is free to receive the sun's light or not. The same is true here. God sends the light of knowledge like rays to all, but He also gave us faith like an eye. The one who wants to receive knowledge through faith, keeps it by his works, and so God gives him more willingness, knowledge, and power" (Philokalia, vol. 3, p. 8).

XVII

I think that by now we have reached the point of understanding correctly what eternal hell and eternal paradise really are, and who is in reality responsible for the difference.

In the icon of the Last Judgment we see Our Lord Jesus Christ seated on a throne. On His right we see His friends, the blessed men and women who lived by His love. On His left we see His enemies, all those who passed their life hating Him, even if they appeared to be pious and reverent. And there, in the midst of the two, springing from Christ's throne, we see a river of fire coming toward us. What is this river of fire? Is it an instrument of torture? Is it an energy of vengeance coming out from God in order to vanquish His enemies?

No, nothing of the sort. This river of fire is the river which "came out from Eden to water the paradise" of old (Gen. 2:10). It is the river of the grace of God which irrigated God's saints from the beginning. In a word, it is the out-pouring of God's love for His creatures. Love is fire. Anyone who loves knows this. God is Love, so God is Fire. And fire consumes all those who are not fire themselves, and renders bright and shining all those who are fire themselves (Heb. 12:29).

God many times appeared as fire: To Abraham, to Moses in the burning bush, to the people of Israel showing them the way in the desert as a column of fire by night and as a shining cloud by day when He covered the tabernacle with His glory (Exod. 40:28, 32), and when He rained fire on the summit of Mount Sinai. God was revealed as fire on the mountain of Transfiguration, and He said that He came "to put fire upon the earth" (Luke 12:49), that is to say, love, because as Saint John of the Ladder says, "Love is the source of fire" (Step 30, 18).

The Greek writer, Fotis Kontoglou said somewhere that "Faith is fire, and gives warmth to the heart. The Holy Spirit came down upon the heads of the apostles in the form of tongues of fire. The two disciples, when the Lord was revealed to them, said 'Did not our heart burn within us, while He talked with us in the way?' Christ compares faith to a 'burning candle.' Saint John the Forerunner said in his sermons that Christ will baptize men 'in the Holy Spirit and fire.' And truly, the Lord said, 'I am come to send fire on the earth and what will I if it be already kindled? Well, the most tangible characteristic of faith is warmth; this is why they speak about 'warm faith,' or 'faith provoking warmth.' And even as the distinctive mark of faith is warmth, the sure mark of unbelief is coldness.

"Do you want to know how to understand if a man has faith or unbelief? If you feel warmth coming out of him  from his eyes, from his words, from his manners  be certain that he has faith in his heart. If again you feel cold coming out of his whole being, that means that he has not faith, whatever he may say. He may kneel down, he may bend his head humbly, he may utter all sorts of moral teachings with a humble voice, but all these will breathe forth a chilling breath which falls upon you to numb you with cold." 43 Saint Isaac the Syrian says that "Paradise is the love of God, in which the bliss of all the beatitudes is contained," and that "the tree of life is the love of God" (Homily 72).

"Do not deceive yourself," says Saint Symeon the New Theologian, "God is fire and when He came into the world, and became man, He sent fire on the earth, as He Himself says; this fire turns about searching to find material  that is a disposition and an intention that is good  to fall into and to kindle; and for those in whom this fire will ignite, it becomes a great flame, which reaches Heaven.... this flame at first purifies us from the pollution of passions and then it becomes in us food and drink and light and joy, and renders us light ourselves because we participate in His light" (Discourse 78).

God is a loving fire, and He is a loving fire for all: good or bad. There is, however, a great difference in the way people receive this loving fire of God. Saint Basil says that "the sword of fire was placed at the gate of paradise to guard the approach to the tree of life; it was terrible and burning toward infidels, but kindly accessible toward the faithful, bringing to them the light of day." 44 The same loving fire brings the day to those who respond to love with love, and burns those who respond to love with hatred.

Paradise and hell are one and the same River of God, a loving fire which embraces and covers all with the same beneficial will, without any difference or discrimination. The same vivifying water is life eternal for the faithful and death eternal for the infidels; for the first it is their element of life, for the second it is the instrument of their eternal suffocation; paradise for the one is hell for the other. Do not consider this strange. The son who loves his father will feel happy in his father's arms, but if he does not love him, his father's loving embrace will be a torment to him. This also is why when we love the man who hates us, it is likened to pouring lighted coals and hot embers on his head.

"I say," writes Saint Isaac the Syrian, "that those who are suffering in hell, are suffering in being scourged by love.... It is totally false to think that the sinners in hell are deprived of God's love. Love is a child of the knowledge of truth, and is unquestionably given commonly to all. But love's power acts in two ways: it torments sinners, while at the same time it delights those who have lived in accord with it" (Homily 84).

God is love. If we really believe this truth, we know that God never hates, never punishes, never takes vengeance. As Abba Ammonas says, "Love never hates anyone, never reproves anyone, never condemns anyone, never grieves anyone, never abhors anyone, neither faithful nor infidel nor stranger nor sinner nor fornicator, nor anyone impure, but instead it is precisely sinners, and weak and negligent souls that it loves more, and feels pain for them and grieves and laments, and it feels sympathy for the wicked and sinners, more than for the good, imitating Christ Who called sinners, and ate and drank with them. For this reason, showing what real love is, He taught saying, 'Become good and merciful like your Father in Heaven,' and as He rains on bad and good and makes the sun to rise on just and unjust alike, so also is the one who has real love, and has compassion, and prays for all." 45

XVIII

Now if anyone is perplexed and does not understand how it is possible for God's love to render anyone pitifully wretched and miserable and even burning as it were in flames, let him consider the elder brother of the prodigal son. Was he not in his father's estate? Did not everything in it belong to him? Did he not have his father's love? Did his father not come himself to entreat and beseech him to come and take part in the joyous banquet? What rendered him miserable and burned him with inner bitterness and hate? Who refused him anything? Why was he not joyous at his brother's return? Why did he not have love either toward his father or toward his brother? Was it not because of his wicked, inner disposition? Did he not remain in hell because of that? And what was this hell? Was it any separate place? Were there any instruments of torture? Did he not continue to live in his father's house? What separated him from all the joyous people in the house if not his own hate and his own bitterness? Did his father, or even his brother, stop loving him? Was it not precisely this very love which hardened his heart more and more? Was it not the joy that made him sad? Was not hatred burning in his heart, hatred for his father and his brother, hatred for the love of his father toward his brother and for the love of his brother toward his father? This is hell: the negation of love; the return of hate for love; bitterness at seeing innocent joy; to be surrounded by love and to have hate in one's heart. This is the eternal condition of all the damned. They are all dearly loved. They are all invited to the joyous banquet. They are all living in God's Kingdom, in the New Earth and the New Heavens. No one expels them. Even if they wanted to go away they could not flee from God's New Creation, nor hide from God's tenderly loving omnipresence. Their only alternative would be, perhaps, to go away from their brothers and search for a bitter isolation from them, but they could never depart from God and His love. And what is more terrible is that in this eternal life, in this New Creation, God is everything to His creatures. As Saint Gregory of Nyssa says, "In the present life the things we have relations with are numerous, for instance: time, air, locality, food and drink, clothing, sunlight, lamplight, and other necessities of life, none of which, many though they be, are God; that blessed state which we hope for is in need of none of these things, but the Divine Being will become all, and in the stead of all to us, distributing Himself proportionately to every need of that existence. It is plain, too, from the Holy Scriptures that God becomes to those who deserve it, locality and home and clothing and food and drink and light and riches and kingdom, and everything that can be thought of and named that goes to make our life happy" (On the Soul and the Resurrection). 46

In the new eternal life, God will be everything to His creatures, not only to the good but also to the wicked, not only to those who love Him, but likewise to those who hate Him. But how will those who hate Him endure to have everything from the hands of Him Whom they detest? Oh, what an eternal torment is this, what an eternal fire, what a gnashing of teeth!

Depart from Me, ye cursed, into the everlasting inner fire of hatred," 47 saith the Lord, because I was thirsty for your love and you did not give it to Me, I was hungry for your blessedness and you did not offer it to Me, I was imprisoned in My human nature and you did not come to visit Me in My church; you are free to go where your wicked desire wishes, away from Me, in the torturing hatred of your hearts which is foreign to My loving heart which knows no hatred for anyone. Depart freely from love to the everlasting torture of hate, unknown and foreign to Me and to those who are with Me, but prepared by freedom for the devil, from the days I created My free, rational creatures. But wherever you go in the darkness of your hating hearts, My love will follow you like a river of fire, because no matter what your heart has chosen, you are and you will eternally continue to be, My children.

Amen.

NOTES

1 "This is evil: estrangement from God." St. Basil the Great, That God is Not the Cause of Evils, "ELLHNES PATERES THS EKKLHSIAS" [Greek Fathers of the Church) 7, 112 (hereafter cited as EPE). "As many... as stand apart in their will from God, He brings upon them separation from Himself; and separation from God is death." St. Irenaeus Against Heresies 5. 27.2. "Men, rejecting eternal things and through the counsel of the devil turning toward the things of corruption, became the cause to themselves of the corruption in death." St. Athanasius the Great On the Incarnation 5 (Migne, PG 25. 104-105). "For as much as he departed from life, just so much did he draw nearer to death. For life is God; deprivation of life is death. So Adam was the author of death to himself through his departure from God." St. Basil the Great (PG 31. 945).

2 "The redemptive sacrifice... was accomplished in order to re-establish the formerly harmonious relation be-tween heaven and earth which sin had overturned, to atone for the flaunted moral law, to satisfy the affronted justice of God." Encyclical Letter for Pascha 1980 of Ecumenical Patriarch Demetrios, Episkepsis (in Greek), no. 229, 15 April 1980.

3 "Truly foolish, therefore, and lacking all understanding and mind is he who says there is no God. Alongside him no less in this madness is he who says that God is the cause of evils. I consider their sins to be of equal gravity because each one similarly denies the good; the former denies that He exists at all, while the latter defines Him as not being good; for if he is the cause of evils, He is clearly not good; so from both sides there is a denial of God." St. Basil the Great, EPE, op. cit., 7, 90.

4 "But someone will say, verily Adam fell, and by disregarding the divine commandment he was condemned to corruption and death, but how were the many made sinful on his account? What do his transgressions have to do with us? How is it that we who were not even born were condemned along with him, and yet God says, 'The fathers shall not be put to death for the children and the sons shall not be put to death for the fathers; everyone shall die in his own sin'? (Deut. 24:18). Surely, then, that soul that sins shall die; but we became sinners through the disobedience of Adam in this way: For Adam was created for incorruption and life, and his life in the Paradise of delight was holy, his whole mind was continually caught up in divine visions, and his body was tranquil and serene, since every shameful pleasure was calmed, for there was no disturbance of intemperate emotions in him. However, since he fell under sin and sank into corruption, thence pleasures and pollutions penetrated into the nature of the flesh, and so there was planted in our members a savage law. Nature became diseased with sin through the disobedience of the one, i.e., Adam; thus the many also became sinners, not as transgressing together with Adam ? for they did not exist at all ? but as being from his nature which had fallen under the law of sin... because of disobedience, human nature in Adam became infirm with corruption, and so the passions were introduced into it...." St. Cyril of Alexandria Interpretation of the Epistle to the Romans (PG 74. 788-789). "And furthermore, if they who were born from Adam became sinners on account of his sinning, in all justice, they are not liable, for they did not become sinners of themselves; therefore the term "sinners" is used instead of "mortals" because death is the penalty of sin. Since in the first-fashioned man nature became mortal, all they who share in the nature of the forefather consequently share mortality also." Euthymios Zigabenos, Interpretation of the Epistle to the Romans, 5:19.

5 It means something totally different from what we customarily mean by the term "justice." This ignorance has caused us to consider as touchstones of Orthodoxy some very strange theories, most particularly the juridical conception of salvation which is based upon a justice that resembles the Necessity (ANAGKH) of the ancients, and oppresses not only man but God also, and gives a gloomy aspect to Christianity. See the relevant study of S. Lynonnett "La Soteriologie Paulienne," Introduction a la Bible Il, (Belgium: Desclees Bc Bower), p. 840.

6 "If a man readily and joyfully accepts a loss for the sake of God, he is inwardly pure. And if he does not look down upon any man because of his defects, in very truth he is free. If a man is not pleased with someone who honors him, nor displeased with someone who dishonors him, he is dead to the world and to this life. The watchfulness of discernment is superior to every discipline of men accomplished in any way to any degree.

"Do not hate the sinner. For we are all laden with guilt. If for the sake of God you are moved to oppose him, weep over him. Why do you hate him? Hate his sins md pray for him, that you may imitate Christ Who was not wroth with sinners, but interceded for them. Do you not see how He wept over Jerusalem? We are mocked by the devil in many instances, so why should we hate the man who is mocked by him who mocks us also? Why, O man, do you hate the sinner? Could it be because he is not so righteous as you? But where is your righteousness when you have no love? Why do you not shed tears over him? But you persecute him. In ignorance some are moved with anger, presuming themselves to be discerners of the works of sinners.

"Be a herald of God's goodness, for God rules over you, unworthy though you are; for although your debt to Him is so great, yet He is not seen exacting payment from you, and from the small works you do, He bestows great rewards upon you. Do not call God just, for His justice is not manifest in the things concerning you. And if David calls Him just and upright (cf. Ps. 24:8, 144:17), His Son revealed to us that He is good and kind. 'He is good,' He says, 'to the evil and to the impious' (cf. Luke 6:35). How can you call God just when you come across the Scriptural passage on the wage given to the workers? 'Friend, I do thee no wrong: I will give unto this last even as unto thee. Is thine eye evil because I am good?' (Matt. 20:12-15). How can a man call God just when he comes across the passage on the prodigal son who wasted his wealth with riotous living, how for the compunction alone which he showed, the father ran and fell upon his neck and gave him authority over all his wealth? (Luke 15:11 ff.). None other but His very Son said these things concerning Him, lest we doubt it; and thus He bare witness concern-ing Him. Where, then, is God's justice, for whilst we are sinners Christ died for us! (cf. Rom. 5:8). But if here He is merciful, we may believe that He will not change [i.e., as regards the state after death, which St. Isaac mentions again a little below].

"Far be it that we should ever think such an iniquity that God could become unmerciful! For the property of Divinity does not change as do mortals. God does not acquire something which He does not have, nor lose what He has, nor supplement what He does have, as do created beings. But what God has from the beginning, He will have and has until the [uneoding] end, as the blest Cyril wrote in his commentary on Genesis. Fear God, he says, out of love for Him, and not for the austere name that He has been given. Love Him as you ought to love Him; not for what He will give you in the future, but for what we have received, and for this world alone which He has created for us. Who is the man that can repay Him? Where is His repayment to be found in our works? Who persuaded Him in the beginning to bring us into being Who intercedes for us before Him, when we shall possess no [faculty of] memory, as though we never existed? Who will awake this our body [Syriac: our corruption] for that life? Again, whence descends the notion of knowledge into dust? O the wondrous mercy of God! O the astonishment at the bounty of our God and Creator! O might for which all is possible! O the immeasurable goodness that brings our nature again, sinners though we be, to His regeneration and rest! Who is sufficient to glorify Him? He raises up the transgressor and blasphemer, he renews dust unendowed with reason, making it rational and comprehending and the scattered and insensible dust and the scattered senses He makes a rational nature worthy of thought. The sinner is unable to comprehend the grace of His resurrection. Where is gehenna, that can afflict us? Where is perdition, that terrifies us in many ways and quenches the joy of His love? And what is gehenna as compared with the grace of His resurrection, when He will raise us from Hades and cause our corruptible nature to be clad in incorruption, and raise up in glory him that has fallen into Hades?

"Come, men of discernment, and be filled with wonder! Whose mind is sufficiently wise and marvelous to wonder worthily at the bounty of our Creator? His recompense of sinners is, that instead of a just recompense, He rewards them with resurrection, and instead of those bodies with which they trampled upon His law, He enrobes them with perfect glory and incorruption. [St. Isaac speaks here of those who have repented, as is evident from other similar passages in his book.) That grace whereby we are resurrected after we have sinned is greater than the grace which brought us into being when we were not. Glory be to Thine immeasurable grace, O Lord! Behold, Lord, the waves of Thy grace close my mouth with silence, and there is not a thought left in me before the face of Thy thanksgiving. What mouths can confess Thy praise, O good King, Thou Who lovest our life? Glory be to Thee for the two worlds which Thou hast created for our growth and delight, leading us by all things which Thou didst fashion to the knowledge of Thy glory, from now and unto the ages. Amen." St. Isaac the Syrian, Homily 60.

7 Ibid.

8 "'For God so loved the world as to give His Only-begotten Son unto death for it.' Not that He could not have redeemed us by another means, but He wished to manifest to us His boundless love, and to draw us near Him through the death of His Only-begotten Son. Indeed, if He had anything more precious than His Son, He would have given it for our sakes, in order that through it our race would be found nigh to Him. Out of His abundant love, He was not pleased to do violence to our freedom, although it was possible for Him to do so; but He let it be in order that we would draw nigh to Him with the love and volition of our own will." St. Isaac the Syrian, Homily 81.

9 "In times of despondency, never fail to bear in mind the Lord's commandment to Peter, to forgive a person who sins seventy times seven, For He who gave this command to another will Himself do far more." St. John Climacus, Ladder of Divine Ascent, Step 26, (Boston: Holy Transfiguration Monastery, 1978), p. 147.

10 "A man who is just and wise is like God because he never chastises a man in revenge for wickedness, but only in order to correct him, or that others be afraid." St. Isaac the Syrian, Homily 73. "God granted this great benefit to man: that he not abide in sin unto eternity." Theophilus of Antioch To Autolycus 2.26.

11 "And God saw all the things that He had made, and behold, they were very good." Genesis 1,31. "[God) created everything which has good qualities, but the profligacy of the demons has made use of the productions of nature for evil purposes, and the appearance of evil which these wear is from them and not from the perfect God." Tatian Address to the Greeks 17. "The construction of the world is good, but the life men live m it is bad." Ibid. 19. "For nothing from the first was made evil by God, but all things good, yea, very good." Theophilus of Antioch To Autolycus 2. 17. "Pour l'hebreau, le sensible n'est pas mauvais, ni fautif. Le mal ne vient pas de la matiere. Le monde est tres bon." [ "For the Hebrew, perceptible things are not evil, nor are they deceptive (lit., erroneous). Evil does not come from matter. The world is 'very good.'"] C. Tresmontant, Essai sur la Pensee Hebraique (Paris, 1953). "There is nothing that exists which does not partake of the beautiful and the good." St, Dionysius the Areopagite On the Divine Names (PG 3. 704). "For even if the reasons why some things come about escapes us, let that dogma be certain in our souls, that nothing evil is done by the good." St. BasiI the Great,EPE, 7, 112. "For it is not the part of a god to incite to things against nature.... But God, being perfectly good, is eternally doing good." Athenagoras, Embassy, 26.

12 "The devil is evil in such wise, that he is evil in disposition, but not that his nature is opposed to good." St. Basil the Great, EPE, 7, 112. "Since God is good, whatever He does, He does for man's sake. But whatever man does, he does for his own sake, both what is good and what is evil." Philokalia, vol. 1, chap. 121, St. Anthony the Great.

13 "For God made not death, neither hath He pleasure in the destruction of the living; for He created aIl things that they might have their being, and the generations of the world were healthful; and there is no poison of destruction in them, nor the kingdom of Hades upon the earth." Wisdom of Solomon 1:13-14. "For God created man to be immortal and made him to be an image of His own eternity. Nevertheless, through envy of the devil came death into the world." Wisdom of Solomon 2:23-24.

14 "And so he who was made in the likeness of God, since the more powerful spirit [the Holy Spirit] is separated from him, becomes mortal." Tatian Address to the Greeks 7.

15 "For as much as he departed from life, just so much did he draw nearer to death. For God is life; depriva-tion of life is death. So Adam was the author of death to himself through his departure from God, in accordance with the scripture which says: 'For behold, they that remove themselves from Thee shall perish.'" Psalm 72: 27.

16 "Thus God did not create death, but we brought it upon ourselves out of an evil disposition. Nevertheless, He did not hinder the dissolution on account of the aforementioned causes, so that He would not make the infirmity immortal in us." St. Basil the Great (PG 31. 345).

17 "But as many as depart from God by their own choice, He inflicts that separation from Himself which they have chosen of their own accord. But separation from God is death, and separation from light is darkness,... It is not, however, that the light has inflicted upon them the penalty of darkness." St. Irenaeus Against Heresies 5. 27:2. "But others shun the light and separate themselves from God...." Ibid., 5. 28:1.

18 Philokalia, vol. 2, p. 27 (Greek edition), St. Maximus the Confessor.

19 "We became the inheritors of the curse in Adam. Certainly we were not punished as though we had disobeyed that command along with him, but because he became mortal, he transmitted the sin to his seed; we were born mortals from a mortal." St. Anastasius the Sinaite, 19. Vide I.N. Karmirh, SUNOYIS THS DOGMATKHS THS ORQODOXOU EKKLHSIAS, s. 38.

20 "Man's transgression against the Creator's righteousness brought the soul's death sentence into effect; for when our forefathers forsook God and chose to do their own will, He abandoned them, not subjecting them to constraint. And for the reasons we have stated above, God lovingly forewarned them of this sentence. But he forbore and delayed in executing the sentence of death upon the body; and while He pronounced it, He relegated its fruition to the future in the abyss of His wisdom and the superabundance of His love for man. He did not say to Adam: 'return to whence thou wast taken,' but 'earth thou art, and unto earth thou shalt return' (Gen. 3:19). Those who hear this with understanding can also comprehend from these words that God 'did not make death' (Wisdom 1:13), either the soul's or the body's. For when He first gave the command, He did not say: 'in whatsoever day ye shall eat of it, die!,' but 'In whatsoever day ye shall eat of it, ye shall surely die' (Gen. 2:17). Nor did He afterwards say: 'return now unto earth,' but "Thou shalt return' (Gen. 3:19), in his manner forewarning, justly permitting and not obstructing what should come to pass." St. Gregory Palamas Physical Theological Moral and Practical Chapters 51 (PG 1157-1160).

21 "The tree of knowledge itself was good, and its fruit was good. For it was not the tree that had death in it, as some think, but the disobedience which had death in it; for there was nothing else in the fruit but knowledge alone; but knowledge is good when one uses it properly." Theophilus of Antioch To Autolycus 2. 25. "The tree did not engender death, for God did not create death; but death was the consequence of disobedience." St. John Damascene Homily on Holy Saturday 10 (PG 96. 612a).

22 "'And what is a merciful heart?' It is the heart's burning for the sake of the entire creation, for men, for birds, for animals, for demons and for every created thing; and by the recollection and sight of them the eyes of a merciful man pour forth abundant tears. From the strong and vehement mercy which grips his heart and from his great compassion, his heart is humbled and he cannot bear to hear or to see any injury or slight sorrow in creation. For this reason he continually offers up tearful prayer, even for irrational beasts, for the enemies of the truth and for those who harm him, that they be protected and receive mercy. And in like manner he even prays for the family of reptiles because of the great compassion that burns in his heart without measure in the likeness of God." St. Isaac the Syrian, Homily 81.

23 "It is not God who is hostile, but we; for God is never hostile." St. John Chrysostom (PG 61. 478).

24 Vide.I.S. RWMANIDHS, TO PROPATORIKON AMARTHMA, (Athens, 1957).

25 "Therefore, we believe in one God: one principle, without beginning, uncreated, unbegotten, indestructible and immortal, eternal, unlimited, uncircumscribed, unbounded, infinite in power, simple, uncompounded, incorporeal, unchanging, unaffected, unchangeable, inalterate, invisible, source of goodness and justice, light intellectual and inaccessible; power which no measure can give any idea of but which is measured only by His own will, for He can do all things whatsoever He pleases; Maker of all things both visible and invisible, holding together all things and conserving them, Provider for all, governing and dominating and ruling over all in unending and immortal reign; without contradiction, filling all things, contained by nothing, but Himself containing all things, being their Conserver and first Possessor; pervading all substances without being defiled, removed far beyond all things and every substance as being supersubstantial and surpassing all, super-eminently divine and good and replete; appointing all the principalities and orders, set above every principality and order, above essence and life and speech and concept; light itself and goodness and being insofar as having neither being, nor anything else that is derived from any other; the very source of being for all things that are, of life to the living, of speech to the articulate, and the cause of all good things for all; knowing all things before they begin to be; one substance, one godhead, one virtue, one will, one operation, one principality, one power, one domination, one kingdom; known in three perfect Persons and adored with one adoration, believed in and worshipped by every rational creature, united without confusion and distinct without separation, which is beyond understanding. We believe in Father and Son and Holy Spirit in Whom we have been baptized. For it is thus that the Lord enjoined the apostles: 'Baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit." St. ]John Damascene Exact Exposition of the Orthodox Faith 1. 8.

26 "He created without matter." St, John Chrysostom (PG 59. 308).

27 St. John Damascene, op. cit. 1. 14.

28 St. John Damascene, op. cit. 1. 8.

29 "The soul without the body can do nothing, whether good or evil. The visions which some see concerning those things that are yonder are shown to them by God as a dispensation for their profit. Just as the lyre remains useless and silent if there is no one to play, so the soul and body, when they are separated, can do nothing." St. Athanasius the Great.

30 "For each of these, after its kind, is a body, be it angel, or soul, or devil. Subtle though they are, still in substance, character, and image according to the subtlety of their respective natures they are subtle bodies." St. Macarius the Great, Fifty Spiritual Homilies, 4, 9.

31 "Let us go and behold in the tombs that man is bare bones, food for worms and a stench." Great Euchologion, (Venice, 1862), p. 415. "For just as the light when it sets in the evening is not lost, so man also is given over to the grave as if setting; yet he is preserved for the dawn of the resurrection." St. John Chrysostom.

32 "He who berates the Creator for not making us sinless by nature, does naught but esteem the irrational nature above the rational." St. Basil the Great, EPE, 7, 110.

33 Also, "Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompense of reward." Hebrews 10:35.

34 "For if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries, He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people. It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. Hebrews 10:26-31.

35 St. Basil the Great, op. cit. 7, 94-96. In this particular passage, St. Basil carefully makes a distinction between the Greek verbs ktizw and dhmiourgew, both of which are generally translated into English as "create." However, ktizw has a long history, beginning with the Sanskrit kshi, which, as in early Greek, meant "to people a country," "to build houses and cities," "to colonize." Later, in Greek, the word came to mean "to establish," "to build up and develop," and finally, "to produce," "create," "bring about." Having in mind these other connotations of the verb ktizw, St. Basil discerned the proper implication of the word in this context and hence made a point of emphasizing this distinction.

36 Ibid. 7.98.

37 St. Gregory the Theologian Fifth Theological Oration 22 (PG 36. 15 7).

38 St. John Damascene, op. cit. 1.11.

39 "Famines and droughts and floods are common plagues of cities and nations which check the excess of evil. Therefore, just as the physician is a benefactor even if he should cause pain or suffering to the body (for he strives with the disease, and not with the sufferer), so in the same manner God is good Who administers salvation to everyone through the means of particular chastisements. But you, not only do you not speak evilly of the physician who cuts some members, cauterizes others, and excises others again completely from the body, but you even give him money and address him as savior because he confines the disease to a small area before the infirmity can claim the whole body. However, when you see a city crushing its inhabitants in an earthquake, or a ship going down at sea with all hands, you do not shrink from wagging a blasphemous tongue against the true Physician and Savior." St. Basil the Great, op. cit. 7, 94. "And you may accept the phrase 'I kill and I will make to live' (Deut. 32:39) literally, if you wish, since fear edifies the more simple. 'I will smite and I will heal' (Deut. 32:39). It is profitable to also understand this phrase literally; for the smiting engenders fear, while the healing incites to love. It is permitted you, nonetheless, to attain to a loftier understanding of the utterance. I will slay through sin and make to live through righteousness. 'But though our outward man perish, yet the inward man is renewed day by day' (II Cor. 4:16). Therefore, He does not slay one, and give life to another, but through the means which He slays, He gives life to a man, and He heals a man with that which He smites him, according to the proverb which says, 'For thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from death' (Prov. 23:14). So the flesh is chastised for the soul to be healed, and sin is put to death for righteousness to live.... When you hear 'There shall be no evil in a city which the Lord hath not wrought' (cf. Amos 3:6), understand by the noun 'evil' that the word intimates the tribulation brought upon sinners for the correction of offenses. For Scripture says, 'For I afflicted thee and straitened thee, to do good to thee' (cf. Deut. 8:3); so too is evil terminated before it spills out unhindered, as a strong dike or wall holds back a river.

"For these reasons, diseases of cities and nations, droughts, barrenness of the earth, and the more difficult conditions in the life of each, cut off the increase of wickedness. Thus, such evils come from God so as to uproot the true evils, for the tribulations of the body and all painful things from without have been devised for the restraining of sin. God, therefore, excises evil; never is evil from God.... The razing of cities, earthquakes and floods, the destruction of armies, shipwrecks and all catastrophes with many casualties which occur from earth or sea or air or fire or whatever cause, happen for the sobering of the survivors, because God chastises public evil with general scourges.

"The principal evil, therefore, which is sin, and which is especially worthy of the appellation of evil, depends upon our disposition; it depends upon us either to abstain from evil or to be in misery.

"Of the other evils, some are shown to be struggles for the proving of courage... while some are for the healing of sins... and some are for an example to make other men sober." St. Basil the Great, op. cit. 7, 98-102.

40 Ibid. 7, 92.

41 "The devil became the 'Prince of matter.'" Athenagoras, Embassy, 24, 25. "They [the demons] afterwards subdued the human race to themselves... and... sowed all wickedness. Whence also the poets and mythologists, not knowing that it was the angels and those demons who had been begotten by them that did these things to men, and women, and cities, and nations which they related, ascribed them to God Himself." St. Justin Martyr Second Apology 5.

42 "For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil." I John 3:8.

43 Fotis Kontoglou, "EKKLHSIASTIKA HMEROLOGIA," OrqodoxoV TupoV, "Church Calendars," Orthodoxos Typos] 131 (Athens), 1 January 1971.

44 St. Basil the Great, Homily 13. 2, Exhortation to Holy Baptism (PG 31. 428 and 95, 1272).

45 "BIBLIOQHKH ELLHNWN PATERWN" [Library of Greek Fathers], vol. 40, pp. 60-61.

46 "'I am father, I am brother, I am bridegroom, I am dwelling place, I am food, I am raiment, I am root, I am foundation, all whatsoever thou willest, I am.' 'Be thou in need of nothing, I will be even a servant, for I came to minister, not to be ministered unto; I am friend, and member, and head, and brother, and sister, and mother; I am all; only cling thou closely to me. I was poor for thee, and a wanderer for thee, on the Cross for thee, in the tomb for thee, above I intercede for thee to the Father; on earth I am come for thy sake an ambassador from my Father. Thou art all things to me, brother, and joint heir, and friend, and member.' What wouldest thou more?" St. John Chrysostom, Homily 76 on the Gospel of Matthew (PG 58. 700).

47 "'The end of the world' signifies not the annihilation of the world, but its transformation. Everything will be transformed suddenly, in the twinkling of an eye.... And the Lord will appear in glory on the clouds. Trumpets will sound, and loud, with power! They will sound in the soul and conscience! All will become clear to the human conscience. The Prophet Daniel, speaking of the Last Judgment, relates how the Ancient of Days, the Judge, sits on His throne, and before Him is a fiery stream (Dan. 7:9-10). Fire is a purifying element; it burns sins. Woe to a man if sin has become a part of his nature: then the fire will burn the man himself. This fire will be kindled within a man; seeing the Cross, some will rejoice, but others will fall into confusion, terror, and despair. Thus will men be divided instantly. The very state of a man's soul casts him to one side or the other, to right or to left.

"The more consciously and persistently a man strives toward God in his life, the greater will be his joy when he hears: 'Come unto Me, ye blessed.' And conversely: the same words will call the fire of horror and torture on those who did not desire Him, who fled and fought or blasphemed Him during their lifetime!

"The Last Judgment knows of no witnesses or written protocols! Everything is inscribed in the souls of men and these records, these 'books', are opened at the Judgment. Everything becomes clear to all and to oneself.

"And some will go to joy, while others -- to horror.

"When 'the books are opened,' it will become clear that the roots of all vices lie in the human soul. Here is a drunkard or a lecher: when the body has died, some may think that sin is dead too. No! There was an inclination to sin in the soul, and that sin was sweet to the soul, and if the soul has not repented of the sin and has not freed itself from it, it will come to the Last Judgment also with the same desire for sin. It will never satisfy that desire and in that soul there will be the suffering of hatred. It will accuse everyone and everything in its tortured condition, it will hate everyone and everything. 'There will be gnashing of teeth' of powerless malice and the unquenchable fire of hatred.

"A 'fiery gehenna' -- such is the inner fire. 'Here there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth.' Such is the state of hell." Archbishop John Maximovitch, "The Last Judgment," Orthodox Word (November- December, 1966): 177-78



David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum
www.BasicChristian.org




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Edited 11/2/2002 12:29:06 PM ET by David (DAVIDABROWN) 
From:  JUSTICEZERO    11/2/2002 9:52 am  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (30 of 71)  
 
  461.30 in reply to 461.28  
 
Actually, the things I do -are- filled with purpose. I just have to find the purpose on my own. I don't find Christians "useless"; I simply don't share some of their beliefs. Hardly something to be upset about, so long as I am not having to defend myself from baseless accusations. 
As to God creating the universe: Maybe a God created the universe. Maybe not. The things I have seen thus far have left me with the conclusion that it's probably the latter. I don't actually claim to "know" that there is no god; I can't. Heck, no-one has ever adequately defined what a god IS in my presence in a way that was not self-contradictory or inadequate to the feats attributed to it. This is not the point; that is between me and the universe. 

My point is only this: The fact that I haven't had a god reveal itself to me in any identifiable fashion does not have any bearing on my behavior. I, and others, do not need a belief in a god to behave well. As I said, I know atheist EMT's, medics, volunteers in their community, people who would give the shirt off their back without a thought to help others in need. 

My use of the term "useless" was in that context only used to show that you had argued successfully that good morals are good morals in this world regardless of whether they are good because a god decided they would be or because they simply are a good idea (and no god needs to tell us that). In that context, a god has no present effect on morality.

-------------------- 
"Freedom is the ability to move in any direction the mind can imagine." - Mestre No 
"Liberty means responsibility. That is why most men dread it." -- George Bernard Shaw 
"Victimhood is a problem to be solved, not an identity to be nurtured." -Shahriyar Smith 
"Once upon a time, heroes went into the darkness to fight monsters. Now, there's no real darkness. We've discovered we're all monsters." -Unknown 
"The Prime Directive was a fictional device dreamed up by liberals to keep the populations of Third World countries in their place. I believe in acts of capitalism between consenting adults." _Forge of the Elders_, L. Neil Smith 
  
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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    11/2/2002 10:31 am  
To:  JUSTICEZERO    (31 of 71)  
 
  461.31 in reply to 461.30  
 
I understand the points that you are trying to make but your support is utterly useless.

You claim that paramedics and such are the embodiment of doing good and of righteousness but everyone knows that these same people cheat on their spouses, cheat on their taxes, lie to their neighbors and a host of other not so noble things.

You are attempting to use humans as an example of righteousness and it just doesnt work because humans are not righteous in ourselves.

David



David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum
www.BasicChristian.org

 
  
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  From:  JUSTICEZERO    11/2/2002 10:51 am  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (32 of 71)  
 
  461.32 in reply to 461.31  
 
>You claim that paramedics and such are the embodiment of doing good and of righteousness but everyone knows that these same people cheat on their spouses, cheat on their taxes, lie to their neighbors and a host of other not so noble things. 
There are many Christians who cheat on their spouses and their tazes, lie to their neighbors, and a host of other not so noble things. I am not claiming any sort of ultimate embodiment of goodness. My claim is merely that atheists are no worse than christians in the frequency in which they do things which are virtuous or how rarely they do things which are bad. 

>You are attempting to use humans as an example of righteousness and it just doesnt work because humans are not righteous in ourselves. 

I am doing no such thing. My argument is merely that people do not need a god to act in a righteous fashion. (And I do not have the expectation that people will .always. act in a "righteous" fashion; I have never claimed people to be perfect.)

-------------------- 
"Freedom is the ability to move in any direction the mind can imagine." - Mestre No 
"Liberty means responsibility. That is why most men dread it." -- George Bernard Shaw 
"Victimhood is a problem to be solved, not an identity to be nurtured." -Shahriyar Smith 
"Once upon a time, heroes went into the darkness to fight monsters. Now, there's no real darkness. We've discovered we're all monsters." -Unknown 
"The Prime Directive was a fictional device dreamed up by liberals to keep the populations of Third World countries in their place. I believe in acts of capitalism between consenting adults." _Forge of the Elders_, L. Neil Smith 
  
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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    11/2/2002 10:59 am  
To:  JUSTICEZERO    (33 of 71)  
 
  461.33 in reply to 461.32  
 
For the record, Christians have never claimed to be perfect. To claim to be perfect would void the cross of Jesus and His death for our sins.

Though we Christians do claim to be mortal humans, meaning that we make mistakes just like everyone else does.

Most of all we claim to be children of God and it is God that makes All of the difference in the world and not man.

David



David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum
www.BasicChristian.org

 
  
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  From:  123four   11/2/2002 10:59 am  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (34 of 71)  
 
  461.34 in reply to 461.23  
 
Where sin abounds, grace abounds much more. 
  
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  From:  123four   11/2/2002 11:00 am  
To:  Dan (dritter51)   (35 of 71)  
 
  461.35 in reply to 461.26  
 
God is pure logic. Logos. :) 
  
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  From:  JUSTICEZERO    11/2/2002 12:49 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (36 of 71)  
 
  461.36 in reply to 461.33  
 
Just so. I know no Atheist who claims to be perfect, only human.
-------------------- 
"Freedom is the ability to move in any direction the mind can imagine." - Mestre No 
"Liberty means responsibility. That is why most men dread it." -- George Bernard Shaw 
"Victimhood is a problem to be solved, not an identity to be nurtured." -Shahriyar Smith 
"Once upon a time, heroes went into the darkness to fight monsters. Now, there's no real darkness. We've discovered we're all monsters." -Unknown 
"The Prime Directive was a fictional device dreamed up by liberals to keep the populations of Third World countries in their place. I believe in acts of capitalism between consenting adults." _Forge of the Elders_, L. Neil Smith 
  
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  From:  Abbas_Child    11/2/2002 1:43 pm  
To:  Dan (dritter51)   (37 of 71)  
 
  461.37 in reply to 461.26  
 
>>me thinks you are in love with your own intellect. such as it is. your logic is completely flawed however. without being too catty...what is a 26 yr old still doing in college anyway? 
Dan, Dan, where did you go? You just lost any credibility you may have garned in this discussion. How sad.

May the LORD bless you and keep you.
May the LORD show you his kindness and have mercy on you.
May the LORD watch over you and give you peace. 

AC



For God made Christ, who never sinned, to be the offering for our sin,
so that we could be made right with God through Christ.
2 Corinthians 5:21

 
  
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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    11/2/2002 2:37 pm  
To:  Dan (dritter51)   (38 of 71)  
 
  461.38 in reply to 461.26  
 
Hi Dan,

No loss of credibility here :o)

Keep up the good work.

I think Abbas_Child is trying to be helpful in some way or another even though they didnt even come close to actually explaining what their difficulty is with your post or what their solution is.

After all it would seem strange to have a forum titled "Hey Nobodys Perfect" and then go around and condemn postings that they deem imperfect.

God Bless you,

David



David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum
www.BasicChristian.org

 
  
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  From:  Abbas_Child    11/2/2002 2:39 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (39 of 71)  
 
  461.39 in reply to 461.38  
 
I didn't "condem" anyone, David. My simple and easy to understand point that could be seen from the text I quoted was that Dan veered from the subject and denegrated to a juvinile demeanor. 
May the LORD bless you and keep you.
May the LORD show you his kindness and have mercy on you.
May the LORD watch over you and give you peace. 

AC



For God made Christ, who never sinned, to be the offering for our sin,
so that we could be made right with God through Christ.
2 Corinthians 5:21

 
  
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   From:  David (DavidABrown)    11/2/2002 2:52 pm  
To:  Abbas_Child    (40 of 71)  
 
  461.40 in reply to 461.37  
 
Hi Abbas_Child,

From my perspective it really looks like you took a cheep shot at Dan. I hope that is not the case but claiming that someone has lost all credibility is a little dramatic.

It has been my experience since running this forum that most postings that are only a line or two long and that dont really have anything to add to the discussion or especially something positive to add to the discussion are really just a veiled attempt at spamming the forum and promoting their own forum.

I guess my question is why are you here spamming this forum?

If you would have taken the effort you would have realized that your forum "Hey Nobodys Perfect" has been listed in the "Basic Christian: Fellowship" directory for months.

I really support what you are doing with your forum and am sure that God will continue to Bless you and your forum.

God Bless you,

David



David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum
www.BasicChristian.org

 
 
From:  Dan (dritter51)   11/2/2002 4:10 pm  
To:  Abbas_Child    (41 of 71)  
 
  461.41 in reply to 461.37  
 
my comments were intended to point out what appears to me to be the narcissism in the commentary I saw. too many words and little if any meaning. someone in love with their own ideas. but where's the beef? 
reminds me of my college days (eons ago) when I thought I was sooooooo intelligent and had it all figured out and the rest of the world looked so stupid. wrong! 



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Edited 11/2/2002 7:11:01 PM ET by Dan (DRITTER51) 
  
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  From:  Dan (dritter51)   11/2/2002 4:26 pm  
To:  123four   (42 of 71)  
 
  461.42 in reply to 461.35  
 
indeed! only an irrational person would deny the Architect of our universe. I've always believed that this type of thinking is the result of one of two things. either it is the individual's ego refusing to acknowledge the obvious. or it is someone who has had a highly negative experience with a church or religious establishment or an individual, and they somehow believe that this negative experience means God Himself is somehow negative and they can therefor feel free to dismiss Him. 
for me, the only thing that remains to try and understand is what is the nature of God? that He exists and created me is indisputable. 



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Edited 11/2/2002 7:26:25 PM ET by Dan (DRITTER51) 
  
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  From:  Minister Falcon (OSMFalcon)     11/4/2002 5:54 pm  
To:  ALL   (43 of 71)  
 
  461.43 in reply to 461.42  
 
John 12:40 "He has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts, lest they should see with their eyes, lest they should understand with their hearts and turn, so that I should heal them."  

Romans 11:7-8
7 but the elect have obtained it, and the rest were blinded. 
8 Just as it is written: "God has given them a spirit of stupor, eyes that they should not see and ears that they should not hear, to this very day."  

2 Corinthians 4:3-5
3 But even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, 
4 whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them. 


We are told quite simply that there are people who will be given the truth and no matter how many times you present it, explain it, show it, demonstrate it, point it out, they will NEVER get it.  Does that mean we should stop trying?  Well, no but one can only hope that the non-believer, uninformed, ignorant, stupid [Proverbs 12:1], fool one day gets set free from the god of this age and begin to SEE.

One has ears to hear and eyes to see, but none are so blind that will not see nor listen to the truth.  If the truth is not in them they will not recognize it.  

Believers know the truth, live the truth, and show the truth through their example.  Non-believers can't even see what is in front of them because it is a stumblingblock to them.  

Judas Escariot betrayed Jesus to the Jews and Romans.  He rationalized his motives, thinking he was doing a good thing, for the good of the whole.  With all that he saw Jesus do, perform miracles, feed 5,000 people with little fish and loaves, all the deliverances of various people, the healings that Jesus performed and all the teachings he still didn't see who was truly in his mists.   Blind fool!  He was a pawn for the purpose of the Father to see His Son martyred for the good of the whole.  Even the non-believer has a slim chance of salvation.  But for all the teaching, all the signs and wonders, all the cajoling, they will not see because they can not see.  Faith plays no role in their existence.  How sad....how really sad...like Judas they won't get it until it is too late....with no chance of salvation. ~Minister Falcon


 
 
  
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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    11/5/2002 2:03 pm  
To:  ALL   (45 of 71)  
 
  461.45 in reply to 461.43  
 
*previous message was deleted by the author and not by the forum.


David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum
www.BasicChristian.org

 
  
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  From:  addi83   11/15/2002 6:31 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (46 of 71)  
 
  461.46 in reply to 461.1  
 
I am replying to your post, mainly to point out a major flaw in your argument. Firstly most nonbelievers (like myself) do not disbelieve in god because God doesnt prove his existance, but because we find the whole premise rather odd. 
Doesnt it seem just a bit odd that the bible is not supported by anything other than itself, and things derived from itself. And it also says that those who disbelieve it are proof that it is in fact correct. If this were any other book than the bible, anyone would be suspicious of it. 
Also it seem odd to post something like this on a forum where probably anyone who reads it agrees with you already. I only saw this in passing, and thougt I ought to at least try to correct some misgivings about how atheists came by their conclusion. 

p.s. Im not interrested in convincing anyone to give up faith or anything (I thing religion can do wonders for some people), Im just saying that I wish relgious people would stop trying to convince people like me to change their minds. Most of us are perfectly happy not believing.
 
  
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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    11/16/2002 12:02 pm  
To:  addi83   (47 of 71)  
 
  461.47 in reply to 461.46  
 
Hi,

The misunderstandings about the support for the Bible are all yours.

It is clearly evident that the Bible is separate and unique from all other human resources.

The Bible is written as prophecy before the events were to take place, knowledge of the future is more knowledge than man possesses, proving that the Bible is written with more knowledge than humanly possible, knowledge that claims and verifies by prophecy that the Bible speaks for God.

The Bible is literally 66 books/documents written at the hand of over 40 men, so in a sense it is not just one book but 66 books written by over 40 men, the complete revelation and writing of the Bible took over 2,000 years to complete, and yet it is really one book with one author in that God is the one author.

It is clearly evident that you do not know or understand God or His Bible.

David



David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum
www.BasicChristian.org

 
  
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  From:  Minister Falcon (OSMFalcon)     11/16/2002 3:20 pm  
To:  addi83   (48 of 71)  
 
  461.48 in reply to 461.46  
 
There is something else I would like to add to David's commentary; the bible has been scrutinized by modern science.  Because it is such a unique book, the science community, many who have been non-believers became believers because they found the accuracy of the books of the bible.  

In the bible it tells how the walls of Jericho came straight down; a highly unlikely feat. Yet scientists have escavated the site and found that indeed the walls did not fall to the left nor to the right, but came straight down.

There was a recent article that I found that supported the crossing of the Red Sea by both the people of God lead by Moses and chariots led by Pharaoh.  The Red Sea has revealed the secrets of the chariots' wheels, some bones, and other artifacts that support the crossing in the general area. 

The gifts of the Spirit which are listed in the bible book of 2 Corinthians are still active today among many believers.  These gifts promote miracles of great proportions to many families, speaking in tongues, prophecy, words of knowledge, exhortation, and so many more.

Prophecy of great numbers that are listed in the bible have already come to pass and the rest that are yet to come to pass are in the making.  

When you really study the books of the bible and get a fuller understanding of it's truth, you would not so foolishly determine that there is no god...when indeed there is.  ~Minister Falcon
 
  
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  From:  Watchman77    11/16/2002 3:49 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (49 of 71)  
 
  461.49 in reply to 461.47  
 
Amen and amen!
 

Rest in Jesus \o/

Watchman77
http://forums.delphiforums.com/Godswrath/start 

http://www.topsitelists.com/topsites.cgi?ID=6&user=BrookeH&area=start  Vote for Watch ye therefore in Best Forums

  

Art used by permission by Pat Marvenko Smith, copyright 1992.
Click here to visit her "Revelation Illustrated" site.
Pat Marvenko Smith


  And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and He that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He doth judge and make war. Rev 19:11

 

http://www.bushcountry.org/readyornot.htm



 
 
  
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  From:  Watchman77    11/16/2002 3:50 pm  
To:  Minister Falcon (OSMFalcon)    (50 of 71)  
 
  461.50 in reply to 461.48  
 
and Amen! again
 

Rest in Jesus \o/

Watchman77
http://forums.delphiforums.com/Godswrath/start 

http://www.topsitelists.com/topsites.cgi?ID=6&user=BrookeH&area=start  Vote for Watch ye therefore in Best Forums

  

Art used by permission by Pat Marvenko Smith, copyright 1992.
Click here to visit her "Revelation Illustrated" site.
Pat Marvenko Smith


  And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and He that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He doth judge and make war. Rev 19:11

 

http://www.bushcountry.org/readyornot.htm



 
 
  
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  From:  addi83   11/16/2002 5:56 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (51 of 71)  
 
  461.51 in reply to 461.47  
 
Saying that the bible is prophetic and that it is obviously written with above-human insight is all well and good, but you make no attempt to prove your point. 
After thinking about this a lot I have come to the conclusion that I dont wish to understand God, or his bible, even if God does exist, and even if the bible came directly from Gods own lips, experience has shown that the most violent wars and crimes have been by people who claim to know exactly what god wants. I prefer to lead my life as I will, I use much from the bible and other religions as basically good philosophy, and I try my best to be a good person. When I die, I do not expect there to be an afterlife in any meaningful sense, but if it does turn out Ive been wrong about everything, then I will deal with that in my way, if god does exist, and the only thing he values in a persons character is how much that person worships him, then I do not wish to be saved by such a god.
 
  
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  From:  addi83   11/16/2002 6:07 pm  
To:  Minister Falcon (OSMFalcon)    (52 of 71)  
 
  461.52 in reply to 461.48  
 
These events are all subject to interpretation, I do not claim to be able to disprove to bible by science, that is not possible, just like you cannot disprove gravity or evolution with the bible. There are many things that would make a wall fall straight down, it might have been constructed in some special way, or there might have been a weakness in the earth beneath it. Or it could have been smote down by god himself. It is very possible for an oceans position to change dramatically in a few decandes, so the red sea could be in a different place then than it is now, or even easier, things fall of ships dont they? 
Prophecies are most of the time so vague that they can be interpreted to mean almost anything, I remember quite a few cults who claim to have discovered the exact date of the apocalypse before hand, and then nothing happens. This has happened so many times that it is impossible to even keep count. 

Why should it mean anything if a Minister named Falcon says something, I want to live by my own views and if that puts me in hell, then thats my funeral. Im not going to live my life by some dogma on the off chance that God will punish me if I dont. I do my best to be a good person, and if thats not good enough for god, well then he and I just wont be able to get along.
 
  
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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    11/16/2002 8:49 pm  
To:  Minister Falcon (OSMFalcon)    (53 of 71)  
 
  461.53 in reply to 461.48  
 
Hi Omsfalcon, 
Excellent points. 

Apparently he isn?t interested in anything Christian, but we both hope that some day he will be interested in the things of God as it is God that does have the final say. 

Thanks again! 

God Bless you, 
David 




David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum
www.BasicChristian.org

 
  
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  From:  123four   11/16/2002 9:47 pm  
To:  addi83   (54 of 71)  
 
  461.54 in reply to 461.52  
 
Heaven does not have 'good people' in it, just born again, washed in the blood of the Lamb. He is our goodness and the only goodness that we have. 
God will never usurp the will that He gave you. We know that He tells us that we must be born again...that is our spirits must be born again of our own freewill, since WHOSOEVER WILL may come to Him. 

For myself, I can tell you that He is more than I could ever imagine 
He could be, and in this life, we all only know Him in part. I have not been disappointed in Him even once since I came to know Him. I wish that there were words to tell you all that I know He is. 

However, you can come to Christ only as the Holy Spirit of God draws you to Him. This born again experience is the way our spirits are born into His family. It is a spiritual thing and cannot be understood by the human mind. It is not an intellectual experience at all, and even if it were, we still could not grasp the greatness of God. We all are humans, made out of dust, with finite minds. God is a spiritual being as well, but He is infinite...hence our minds could never understand the things of God entirely. The Holy Spirit at some time in our lives introduces us to God the Father, thru Jesus. When we receive Jesus as our Lord...it is then that we begin to have understanding. So, it is no wonder that you find lack of understanding. I remember throwing my Bible across the room because no matter how much I read, I could not understand...it all seemed contradiction and mysteries to me. That's because I was trying to understand with my mind, as my spirit had not yet been born again. 
Romans 11 
[34] For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counseller? 

1Cor.2 
[14] But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. 

On these forums you will see people who have tried to 'figure out' what God really wants or what He really thinks, and you will see the biggest mess of false doctrine you can even imagine. Our minds are not capable of reaching God...that is thru that medium. We have to come to God in spirit AND in truth. 

I would ask you only that if you ever should feel prompted by the Spirit of God that you would want to know God...that you ask that Spirit to REVEAL God to you. It is thru revelation knowledge of the Word that we can KNOW that He IS GOD. It is the Spirit who draws us to God. I am in no way trying to convince you to do so, but just telling you how you can if you ever do choose to. Just pray the simple prayer asking God to reveal Himself to you. That's all. If it is sincere, you can expect a miracle. :) Of course, it's all up to you. We sometimes have changes in our lives where we do want different lives, and it is possible that could happen to you. Just 
wanted you to know how you can come to know God, should you ever want to.
 
  
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  From:  addi83   11/17/2002 8:55 am  
To:  123four   (55 of 71)  
 
  461.55 in reply to 461.54  
 
Well, thanks, but I feel that in the spiritual department, I am self sufficient, at least for now. 
Best wishes
 
  
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  From:  Minister Falcon (OSMFalcon)     11/17/2002 4:10 pm  
To:  addi83   (56 of 71)  
 
  461.56 in reply to 461.52  
 
Add183,

You said:  These events are all subject to interpretation, I do not claim to be able to disprove to bible by science, that is not possible, just like you cannot disprove gravity or evolution with the bible.

You are absolutely right when you said this.  However, the point was not HOW it was done, but that the bible said IT WAS done in this fashion.  There is nothing to interpret there, just that the event did take place.  How is not the point, but it is just one example of the validity of the bible's stories.

You said:  Prophecies are most of the time so vague that they can be interpreted to mean almost anything, I remember quite a few cults who claim to have discovered the exact date of the apocalypse before hand, and then nothing happens. This has happened so many times that it is impossible to even keep count. 

Prophecies are almost never vague to the Christian.  The reason is that they understand that prophecies come in parts, not as a whole and complete message.  So to the onlooker it seems vague but it is not.  So as Christian teachers we look for a cross referencing scripture to give us the next part to complete the picture and the next and the next until the picture is constructed and completed.  Then we wait for the event to unfold as the bible foretells.   

You said:  Why should it mean anything if a Minister named Falcon says something, 

You are correct, my opinion is worthless, even to me.  

You said:  I want to live by my own views and if that puts me in hell, then thats my funeral. Im not going to live my life by some dogma on the off chance that God will punish me if I dont. I do my best to be a good person, and if thats not good enough for god, well then he and I just wont be able to get along.

Is the gamble of losing your life to stay in utter ignorance worth the price of eternal damnation?  I am a good person too.  But being a good person will not get me or you or anyone else to heaven.  Once you realize that, and get an education on the word of God you will change your beliefs.  All you need to do is get an education.  You should base your understand on facts, not on your own opinion.  That would be the wise choice.  You already have the wisdom to understand that my opinion is worthless....what's the difference then to your own opinion?  So seek the facts...read the word for yourself...get the understand and wisdom then make an EDUCATION statement rather than from your own personal opinion which has no more value than my opinion.

 

 
 
  
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  From:  addi83   11/17/2002 5:09 pm  
To:  Minister Falcon (OSMFalcon)    (57 of 71)  
 
  461.57 in reply to 461.56  
 
Im not saying that your opinion is worthless, Im just saying that because I dont know anything about you, I dont know how much it is worth. 
My own opinion means something to me, and those who trust me. (if I didnt value my own opinion, I wouldnt know whose opinion I should trust, because my own opinion on who to trust would be worthless) 

What I said is that if being good doesnt get me into heaven, then I dont want to go to heaven. 

Again with the prophecies, if they are in fact like a puzzle, then obviously its a puzzle that fits together in many ways, and not all of them are correct outcomes. Seeing that many times people with a lot of education in theology have proclaimed to have discovered something that was later proved to be wrong (like dating the age of the earth to 40?? BC.). How can you be sure that your own puzzle solving gives a result that is correct, or even that any result is correct, and not just putting ogether the pieces after the event takes place and saying, "oh, so thats what it said all along" 

My own view goes strongly to what you said about opinions, our own wisdom (limited as it may be) is the only thing we REALLY have to guide us, whether we use it to find better guidance (like you claim to have found in god), or if we use it solely. If our own wisdom means nothing, then we have nothing, and anything we do is meaningless. If you disgard your own senses and rely only of those of god (as you perceive them), then you have become a sheep, and all your life means nothing, because you are not a person, but a follower. An extension of your (alleged) creators will. And this is, I believe the major difference between you and me, I believe that to you, being an extension of God is like heaven, an ultimate goal, while I value my individuality too much to lose it. 

I resent being called utterly ignorant, I use my senses to interpret what I see before me, and to judge what is said and done, I study science and nature, and because I can see how things work without the involvement of a divine entity, you call me ignorant. I accept a persons right to believe what they will as long as it doesnt drive them to do undue harm to others. I fully accept that you prefer to use the bible as an explanation of how the world works. My own prefered method is different, but both work, we have the means to live happily and help others. Cant we just leave it at that. I am fully ready to be judged for my own views, because I believe them to be just. 



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Edited 11/18/2002 3:53:19 AM ET by ADDI83 
  
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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    11/18/2002 7:45 am  
To:  addi83   (58 of 71)  
 
  461.58 in reply to 461.57  
 
Hi,

Your post is a good example of why Atheism is so shallow and hallow.

Why would you consider yourself to be more trustworthy than Jesus?

David



David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum
www.BasicChristian.org

 
  
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  From:  Minister Falcon (OSMFalcon)     11/18/2002 12:44 pm  
To:  addi83   (59 of 71)  
 
  461.59 in reply to 461.57  
 
Add183,

You said: Im not saying that your opinion is worthless, Im just saying that because I dont know anything about you, I dont know how much it is worth. 

There is a perceived offense here, I didn't intend for you to think that I was reinterpreting your statement concerning opinion.  I am actually saying that my opinion is worthless, not because you don't know me, but because I know that my opinion comes from the imagination or intellect.  Imagination and intellect are designed to guide and perceive our environment.  However it was never designed for us to make decisions that would come against the knowledge of God.  The wisdom of God is the wisdom man prays for to get a full picture or overview of our life.  This wisdom comes from the Holy Spirit and is augmented by the spirits of knowledge and understanding.  Together they work to give great insight and revelation in every situation.  A non-believer misses that blessing when they do not call forth for that type of wisdom. 

Experience is a great teacher, but it is better to be taught before the experience takes place.  I opt to go with the teacher and then operate fully in the experience.  That way the knocks will be less intrusive to my mental, emotional, or physical state.

We are taught not to trust man because man is not perfect.  We would like to be trustworthy, of course, and many are considered trustworthy.  However, when circumstances pervent one from completing one's vow, one's trustworthiness is called into question.  However, with God, He is completely trustworthy because He can not lie, can not be changed by our circumstances, and will never fail us.  Who fails is man, not God.  God is the standard for all living things, including non-believers.  Just because one does not believe in God, does mean that God stops existing.  Our beliefs do not change the truth, but Truth changes our beliefs.

You said:  Again with the prophecies, if they are in fact like a puzzle, then obviously its a puzzle that fits together in many ways, and not all of them are correct outcomes. Seeing that many times people with a lot of education in theology have proclaimed to have discovered something that was later proved to be wrong (like dating the age of the earth to 40?? BC.). How can you be sure that your own puzzle solving gives a result that is correct, or even that any result is correct, and not just putting ogether the pieces after the event takes place and saying, "oh, so thats what it said all along" 

In assembling the pieces of a puzzle, a picture is formed.  There is one puzzle, one picture, and one way to fit the pieces together.  You can see by the picture if the puzzle has been assembled correctly.  That's how we know the truth.  If the picture is distorted, the pieces were not assembled correctly.  It happens, but through practice, trial and err, one learns to assemble the prophecies in the order in which God had intended.  God still proves Himself but showing and allowing the prophecies to come forth.  The proof then is in the results.

You said:  My own view goes strongly to what you said about opinions, our own wisdom (limited as it may be) is the only thing we REALLY have to guide us, whether we use it to find better guidance (like you claim to have found in god), or if we use it solely. If our own wisdom means nothing, then we have nothing, and anything we do is meaningless. 

Our wisdom is purposeful, and it means something, but not to God.  God's wisdom is higher than our own.  The question one has to ask, is what wisdom do I want, limited wisdom or unlimited wisdom? 

You said:  If you disgard your own senses and rely only of those of god (as you perceive them), then you have become a sheep, and all your life means nothing, because you are not a person, but a follower. 

Again senses have a purpose however they are not to be trusted.  What smells good may taste bad, as in the case of vanilla extract.  What tastes good, may smell bad, as in the case of limberger cheese.  [I personally can't get past the smell to taste it, but I hear that it is good.]  And also the senses can be tricked as numerous scientific studies show.  So again deferfing to the Holy Spirit's knowledge, understanding, viewpoint, is wisdom on the part of man.

Yes, I am a sheep, that is true, and my Shepherd lays down with me in the field, in the valley, and climbs with me on the mountain.  He is always with me, so I am never alone without my Source of comfort, help, protection, and provision.  A true Shepherd will be with His sheep.  But a goat on the other hand, is a butt head, the original butt head and difficult to teach.  I've been around goats, you can feed them great food but they still continue to chomp on the can where the food was poured out.  They think that it is their source of nourishment because it smells good, when indeed, it's in their bowl to eat.  

You said: An extension of your (alleged) creators will. And this is, I believe the major difference between you and me, I believe that to you, being an extension of God is like heaven, an ultimate goal, while I value my individuality too much to lose it.   

You know, that's exactly how I feel, wanting to be an individual.  But I have found that by doing it God's way, my individuality has more power, more potency, and more satifaction than when I was a non-believer.  Don't think you have to give up the good part of your individuality, but it becomes enhanced.  What you gain by doing it God's way far outweighs that which you give up.  That which you give up is not positive or good in the first place for you or anyone else.  By submitting to your own limited resources, you are less than what you think as an individual.  And by giving your life over to God, you are more than you ever dreamed you could be....what an experience!  It is awesome because the power is limitless....!

You said:  I resent being called utterly ignorant, I use my senses to interpret what I see before me, and to judge what is said and done, I study science and nature, and because I can see how things work without the involvement of a divine entity, you call me ignorant. I accept a persons right to believe what they will as long as it doesnt drive them to do undue harm to others. I fully accept that you prefer to use the bible as an explanation of how the world works. My own prefered method is different, but both work, we have the means to live happily and help others. Cant we just leave it at that. I am fully ready to be judged for my own views, because I believe them to be just. 


Ignorance means without knowledge or education.  It was not meant as an insult to you or anyone.  It is a true statement however, if you are not knowledgeable or educated in the things of God to be able to make a informed decision based on one's senses which are subject to limite ...[Message truncated] 



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Edited 11/18/2002 5:22:34 PM ET by OSMFALCON 
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   From:  addi83   11/18/2002 2:05 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (60 of 71)  
 
  461.60 in reply to 461.58  
 
Because I know myself and because I dont know Jesus. And if I wanted to get to know him, all I could use to do that is a book written long after his death, that has been translated multiple times, and I dont know the authors or how trustworthy their word is. 
I choose to look at the bible as any other book, I cant just take it to be the truth only because it says it is the truth. If it were any other book, then you probably wouldnt either. 

Why dont you explain why my views are shallow and hollow, proclamations like this have their place, but if you dont give any valid arguments, it looks like you dont have any and are trying to discredit me on proclamations alone.
 
  
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From:  addi83   11/18/2002 2:25 pm  
To:  Minister Falcon (OSMFalcon)    (61 of 71)  
 
  461.61 in reply to 461.59  
 
Look this is getting a bit out of hand, it is obvious that you are very satisfied with your way of life, and I appreciate that, what I am saying is that I am also very satisfied with my way of life. You might say that I am a goat that really likes the taste and texture of eating metal. While I appreciate the effort when you pour this fine religious grain at my feet, I must make it clear that I have done a lot of soul searching, and found that that is not the way for me. 
People have different needs, some want security and the help to prosper fully, others prefer the challange of doing things on their own, while this is prideful and probably a bit vain as well, I simply cannot see it as a bad thing to want to succeed on my own merit. 

I dont know that god exists, neither do I know that god does not exist. I believe the question to be of no consequense (at least to me), because regardless of gods existance, I want to do trust in my own strength and follow my own convictions. 

I think we both know that the other cannot be converted, in fact I have no interrest in converting anyone from religion, because I have seen what joy and fulfillment it can bring to them, it is simply not for me, because in essence I dont believe. I could fake it (and did for some time) but it would bring me no more joy than faking atheism would bring you. 

I suggest we drop the issue, before we start repeating ourselves. Agreed?
 
  
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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    11/18/2002 8:58 pm  
To:  addi83   (62 of 71)  
 
  461.62 in reply to 461.61  
 
Its really very simple!

Life exists and death also exists.

Since they exist there has to be a reason for it and life is too meaningful and complex for chance or randomness and death is too permanent and too certain to neglect.

The Bible  Jesus has the answers to both life and death. We exist to get to know God by having a personal relationship with Him and death exists because of sin  mans disobedience against God.

The Bible is written by Prophets who foretold the future before it happens, this is more knowledge than man possesses.

Jesus conducted His life in the open and His events were witnessed by thousands.

Jesus walked on water, Jesus healed the sick, Jesus resurrected from death.

Again all witnessed and all testified to by many people, if you choose to ignore the testimony of the Holy Spirit Himself who also testifies of the resurrection of Jesus.

As far as you go or any other human, Atheist or not, Im sure it has been a while since you walked on water or calmed a storm or healed anyone, so left to a choice Id have say Ill fallow Jesus!

These topics and many, many more are extensively covered on this forum. There is a Search option on the forum start page to assist you in finding these topics.

David



David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum
www.BasicChristian.org

 
  
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  From:  addi83   11/19/2002 12:50 am  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (63 of 71)  
 
  461.63 in reply to 461.62  
 
But I dont believe that. Except for the part about death. Scientifically, death is what happens when the body can no longer sustain the brain, or when the brain it self malfunctions and ceases to operate. Some choose to believe that man has an immortal soul, that lives beyond this event. This has never been proven or unproven simply because it is unprovable, it is a question that relies purely on faith. The bible says this is the truth (that at least those who believe in god will have an immortal soul). I question the very foundation of this, is the bible trustworthy? I dont really know anything about it other than what it itself says, and it is totally unsupported by any other writing of the time. You say thousands of people witnessed these events, where, other than in the bible is that mentioned? 
  
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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    11/19/2002 8:10 am  
To:  addi83   (64 of 71)  
 
  461.64 in reply to 461.63  
 
Hi,

Just the fact that we humans do have a Soul, a Conscience, and Desires, Hopes, and Dreams, kind of makes you wonder doesnt it.

The existence of our soul and conscious means that we have left the realm of the physical so your physical description of death is inadequate.

The spiritual real more accurately represents the human existence and the existence of God, besides Jesus said that God is Spirit not physical and that He is to be worshiped in the spirit and in the Truth. John 4:24.

David



David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum
www.BasicChristian.org

 
  
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  From:  addi83   11/19/2002 8:15 am  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (65 of 71)  
 
  461.65 in reply to 461.64  
 
But it is also very possible that our "souls" are really only in our minds, that is with our highly evolved brains, we experience quite a lot, but nothing that cannot be explained by medicine. There is no reason to assume our souls are somehow beyond our physical brain. 
  
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  From:  Minister Falcon (OSMFalcon)     11/19/2002 9:11 am  
To:  addi83   (66 of 71)  
 
  461.66 in reply to 461.63  
 
Add183

You said:  You say thousands of people witnessed these events, where, other than in the bible is that mentioned?

You mean to say that if it was in other books as well that you would then believe?  If that is true, then you would find 5 of these books in the Talmud and Islam books.  You must know that there are 66 books comprising the bible. And within those books other books are mentioned which are available.  So if that is all that it takes to believe, when then hey welcome aboard!

You said:  But I dont believe that. Except for the part about death. Scientifically, death is what happens when the body can no longer sustain the brain, or when the brain it self malfunctions and ceases to operate.

Life and death are part of the equation, you can't believe a part and deny the existence of the other.  That's like saying that there is a north pole, but I don't except the south pole because I have never been there.  So therefore it does not exist.  To you science has proven to you that the north pole exists because there are several books written about the discovery of that pole, but there is hardly a mention of the south pole so therefore because science does not recognize it, neither will I.

You said:  Some choose to believe that man has an immortal soul, that lives beyond this event. This has never been proven or unproven simply because it is unprovable, it is a question that relies purely on faith. 

It is not the soul that is immortal, it is the spirit man within that is immortal.  So you are correct in believing that the soul is not immortal.  The soul is the house for the mind, will, and emotions.  The body embodies the soul and the spirit is either sleeping in the non-believer or awakened in the believer.  

Why you can't understand or believe is because your spirit man is sleeping.  It has not been activated by belief.  So you will go around and around and around with your ideas and not really truly understand that which is at your disposal to believe.  

If you only took the chance and tried to believe in and accept Jesus, your understanding would be open to you.  

You would know and not need proof because you can't explain fully your  own experience when your spirit man awakens.  You will just know it has. 

It is as difficult for a believer to explain to a non-believer what that experience is like because the non-believer has NOTHING to compare it to.  There is NOTHING to compare the awakening of your spirit man through belief.  

At the same time, you can't disprove what a believer has experienced.  Science can not prove it nor disprove it.  Yet God has chosen many times to prove Himself to science over and over again through miracle healings, creative miracles, biblical prophecies fulfilled, historical accounts proven by archeology's findings and so on.  ~Minister Falcon
 
  
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  From:  addi83   11/19/2002 9:15 am  
To:  Minister Falcon (OSMFalcon)    (67 of 71)  
 
  461.67 in reply to 461.66  
 
Im getting rather tired of this, were going around in circles. 
Besides, those 66 books are all interconnected, if one is faulty, then more could be, also they could all be wrong. Islamic books are just as vulnerable because the rely on the same books as the bible. Surely you knew that when I question the bible, Im questioning its component books. 



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Edited 11/19/2002 12:20:47 PM ET by ADDI83 
  
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  From:  Minister Falcon (OSMFalcon)     11/19/2002 9:30 am  
To:  addi83   (68 of 71)  
 
  461.68 in reply to 461.67  
 
You asked for other books to prove the bible, I gave them to you but you still are not satisfied with proof.  Of course other books are going to support the bible if they are in agreement, what do you think?  Do you think it is going to dispute it?  You should be tired, because you are wearing yourself out trying to keep up with the fallacy of your belief system based upon your opinion. ~Minister Falcon 
  
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  From:  addi83   11/19/2002 10:41 am  
To:  Minister Falcon (OSMFalcon)    (69 of 71)  
 
  461.69 in reply to 461.68  
 
Man am I getting sick of you, you give no arguments save for those of you faith. I said I didnt trust the bible, and when I ask for any other source that supports it you name the books component books! What kind of sorry argument is that? Its like saying the StarWars trilogy happened because its supported by the events of "The Return of the Jedi". (I realize that the other system is much more complex, but this is in essence the same). 
Islam is foundet upon christianity, that is in turn foundet upon Judism. If one of their books is suspect, then they all are. When I ask for other information from the time, I am obviously asking for information that is not from people who have read and agreed with the other information. Not to meantion if the authors knew one another. 

Also where do you stop, if all these 66 books are inspired by god, and none of them is possibly wrong, then how can you claim that the Quran is, how is it different? Or centuries of rules that the catholic church has seemingly come up with itself? 

And to go off claiming to have won the argument on such a flimsy statement. Its just too much. If you want to continue this discussion, you are going to have to adopt at least one of my opinions, religious tolerance.
 
  
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  From:  Minister Falcon (OSMFalcon)     11/19/2002 10:57 am  
To:  addi83   (70 of 71)  
 
  461.70 in reply to 461.69  
 
First of all, I am not debating or arguing, that would imply I am presenting my emotions forward before my intellect.  I am not emotional about a subject I enjoy presenting.

One of your opinion is religious tolerance; I have adopted several of your opinions of which I have emphatically stated often in my posts to you.  Since you do not believe in God, you must not have a religion, therefore religious tolerance is not an issue.  Atheism is not a religion.  Disbelief is not a religion.  At least I haven't found one recognized authority to call it a 'religion'.

Judaism came first, Islam came later, and then the Christianity was born out of Judaism.

Judaism is not in conflict with Christianity accept for the acceptance of Jesus Christ as their Messiah.  However, the Messianic Jews do accept Jesus Christ as the Messiah and are the first fruits of Christianity.  

Islam, Judaism, and Christianity have the first 5 books as their law.  The other books found in the bible are historical records of which every country in the world that has a written language uses as a book of knowledge.  The exception is, that the bible is God-inspired accounts and not just man-made.  

Does that mean that other books are not inspired by God?  No certainly not!  But there has been no other book that has as much proven truth in it over the centuries as the Holy Bible has been purported to have.  So therefore a wise person will study, find out what makes it so valuable and follow its precepts.

And as far as other Christians and their doctrine, I am not in favor of adding more burden to a Christian with manmade doctrine.  I am only in favor of following God's way, not man's way.  So to bring up other Christian doctrine of men is mute for me.

______________

By the way, why is it that you only addressed one statement in a long statement made to you?   ~Minister Falcon
 
  
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   From:  addi83   11/19/2002 3:49 pm  
To:  Minister Falcon (OSMFalcon)    (71 of 71)  
 
  461.71 in reply to 461.70  
 
What I mean by religious tolerance is of course tolerance towards other peoples religions, not my own, I dont have to have a religion to be tolerant of other peoples religions. 
Im sorry for ignoring much of your last post, other people needed to use the computer I was using. 

There are many possible ways to explain the world, theres the scientific method, every religion has one, some non religious philosophies have one. There is a chance of each of them being correct, I personally prefer the scientific method, because it is built on logic and reason, however, I am prepared for the idea that logic and reason (or my ability to understand these things) may be faulty, and my scientific method along with it. So even if I prefer my own view, I can see that other views might be true. Most religious people are dead set on their own view, and refuse to even consider that there might be an alternative. That is what I find stupid about some views, not the actual views themselves, but the inability to comprehend that they might be wrong. If we refuse to believe we might have misunderstood, than that is arrogance of the highest degree. (dont take this too personally, at the moment I am talking about fundamentalists) 

People should at least be able to modify their standing based on new information (another thing I like about science, when something new is proven, the entire system is overhauled to make room for it). 

I also believe that we have reached the point where I have explained my view, and you have explained yours. And there is little more to discuss. Feel free to make comments or ask questions though. I believe I understand the world of the devout christian better than before, and I hope you understand the world of the non-believer a bit better as well. I further believe that both of us understand our own views a bit better after thinking about them and explaining them. 

Best wishes 
Andrs 




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Edited 11/20/2002 7:03:09 PM ET by ADDI83 
  
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